Sunday, October 11, 2009

Sunday School Lesson: Church Ain't All Bad!



Ya know Solar and gang, even though I'm not much for organized religion, I'm glad I had my church time growing up. There were a lot of good lessons there. There might be a lot of hypocrisy but I do think they meant well.


Most of the lessons you learn in Sunday School and Church are good. It is a place for kids to go where they give out lessons on how to be good and why you should. Where else can they go for that? Kid don't always know why they should try to be good except that mom or dad will kick your ass if you aren't. Some moms and dads don't care if your good. They might be too busy with their own lives or struggles or are too lazy to do it. Discipline is a lot of work.

Even the hypocrisy you see in church is a good lesson. Kind of makes your little kid brain go, Say what? You are hearing one thing and watching those big people do something else. I was aware of that as a kid. It's part of the learning.

And it was a pretty safe place to have some fun. I had a lot of fun going to some church events. We had these weekend camping trips called retreats. There were a few of my church friends and myself who tried to entertain and torment some of the adult supervisors with our little pranks. No irreversible damage done.

Nothing is more fun than pulling pranks at church camp. And I could tell the adults were entertained. My little red headed friend, Jamie, was the most entertaining. She was a very creative person. She kind of went off the deep end when she became an adult. I think that happens more often to really creative people. Sometimes I think there is a fine line between really creative and crazy.

If I would have been fortunate enough to have a kids, I would have made them go to church. If for no other reason, it does get them out of your hair for several hours. Parents do need a break now and again. This is just IMHO.


I have a name!

















This is my chicken, sausage, and okra gumbo. Come on over for a bowl.

209 comments:

1 – 200 of 209   Newer›   Newest»
jan said...

I will be the first one to write a post unless someone else is sitting at their comp writing at same time.

Well, Carol, my throat is on fire this am. So glad I have some cepacol throat loz's in the ole med cab.

I was one of those kids who went to church and Sunday school as a kid too. I grew up in a very small town in OK and that was the only game in town on Sun. My mother would not have it any other way. We went to church several nights a week too. My church was one of those that believed you were going to Hell if you didn't believe the way they believed. There was a lot of preaching about Hell and the Rapture and consequently I had nightmares about being "left behind" or someone taking me away from my mother and dad because I did something sinful. Some of the stuff they taught was hogwash. We changed churches often so I had a look at many beliefs. When I was a teen I changed churches on my own and found one that had teen activities and beliefs that made more sense. When I went to college I realized that much of what was said in those sermons (when I was a young child) was simply the rantings of whoever was up there at the pulpit. Oh yes, we went to a lot of those tent revivals too. Does anyone remember the movie, Elmer Gantry. That is how I see many of these preachers now - as not having any credibility. My husband went to seminary 3 years and still studies and keeps up with the scholars in his field.I feel he has credibility to do what he does although he is retired now. I too feel that organized religion has many problems. Like you, church and religion does provide us with some guidance as to how to live our lives in a more caring/loving way. However, look at the Catholic priests who prey on young children and many get away with it. I know a man who was molested by a priest as a kid and then went on and did the same thing to young boys.

Carol said...

Jan, that's why I said, it ain't all bad. You do need to carefully select the church and consider the people who attend it.

Need to find a place where good people with a need to nuture their spirituality go. Our blog is one place, I believe.

Carol said...

I have a theory about why there are so many of those Catholic priests molesting children. I think that not allowing priest to marry is not a good thing. Men are very sexual and trying the deny that is not good and will not work often.

I think young people who realize they are gay often can't tolerate that consept. That was especially true before gay got to be a little cooler. And especially those young people raised in families who have these strong religious beliefs against it.

They probably thought that the only thing to do was deny their sexuality. Being a Catholic priest would work, they thought. Also it would please the family. Kill two birds with one strong so to speak.

Only problem is, denial doesn't last forever. Then you have a person who later realizes that he has this power of being a priest and this screaming desire for sex. A very dangerous combination.

Carol said...

And then there are probably young people who are craving some physical intimacy, not sex but just some hugging and touching from someone who represents a parent like figure.

You remember that book your read in grad school about touching. The body does crave it. Also remember the story of the warm fuzzies and cold pricklies. The backbone will shrivel up without warm fuzzies.

Parents are often so caught up in their own personal crises that they don't have time to give their kids those things or they never got any as a kid and don't know how.

These kids may actually be looking for it in someone they see as an authority figure. Giving that hug may start out innocent enough and then bingo another dangerous situation.

Carol said...

Warm Fuzzy Story

jan said...

I remember that warm fuzzy story - I think when we were in the nursing program. I thought one of our teachers made it up.

Carol said...

Our teachers weren't that clever Jan. Don't you remember?

Carol said...

And that just goes to show you what you can learn in college.

jan said...

I have often wondered why people prey sexually on children and youth. Certainly, some women have been known to do this, but much more often it is men. I think for priests or politicians or anyone else in positions of power - is it sexual desire, or is it an issue of power and control.

Carol said...

When young parents are often still too wrapped up in their own growing up to meet thier young children's needs, that's when granny needs to be there. Granny to the rescue.

jan said...

As to these issues, I believe there are more questions than answers.

Carol, some of them were pretty sharp. We taught each other a lot in our group sessions.

Carol said...

"is it sexual desire, or is it an issue of power and control?" I think both are involved Jan.

jan said...

We used to make fun of M.H. (peds) in our discussions. But when I got to grad school, I realized she prepared me well. I had a lot better educ for grad school than some of the others in my mat/child program.

Carol said...

We were our own best teachers Jan. I do remember during our senior year, we looked at who was teaching us and said, we better learn it on our own if we want to learn it. Do you remember that. A lot has been flooding back from those years Jan.

jan said...

sex or power - I agree it is both. Maslow has sex right up there with drives such as hunger - sex actaully is a drive that precedes lov

jan said...

Carol, I agree. The most interesting and exciting discussions were our study sessions. The classes were boring. At least they gave us the "bones" to chew on -

jan said...

I am glad we had Gloria C. She gave us the basics that helped us to learn on our own. She has been my own role model with students. She had respect for the student and she knew her stuff. She was one of the few that came there to teach with a masters degree.

jan said...

Me too, I am remembering so much since I joined your blog. Do you have any contact with Katy, Darlene, Gil, Leslie?

Carol said...

Just like teenagers with their parents, it's not until you grow up some that you realize just how much your parents or teachers knew and taught you. You look back with love and appreciation.

jan said...

"Granny to the rescue" Were your grandparents involved with you? I don't remember your mentioning them? I think aunts/uncles and g'parents have a great effect on kids too.

jan said...

"These kids may actually be looking for it in someone they see as an authority figure. Giving that hug may start out innocent enough and then bingo another dangerous situation"
So true,

jan said...

The hunger "drive" is calling.

Carol said...

Mark Twain had some famous quote about parents. Someone here might be able to find it. Ivy, Chloe?

Only Darlene Jan, and she is pretty sick most of the time.

Yes Gloria was also my role model. When she was around, I was such a klutz though. The harder I tried to impress her, the worse I did.

Carol said...

No Jan, mama wasn't capable of affection and no grandparents to do it. Backbone is shriveled up.

Carol said...

I'm serious, osteroporosis.

jan said...

We were all klutzes Carol, I don't think you were any more klutzy than any of the rest of us.

I did not realize your mom was not capable of affection. Was that when you were a little kid or thoughout your life?

Carol said...

Well, I'm talked out for the day. I bet you don't believe that. It's now ya'lls turn. I can hear Chloe's wheels a turnin. She gonna be doing some serious pondering but don't know if she'll share it.

Off to walk the Magster. She choose Fiddle for the cat's name. I also have to go feed Fiddle or Fiddler.

jan said...

Carol, did your mom get affection from her parents?

jan said...

I am envious. Wish I could get out and walk.

Carol said...

It was a cold prickly Jan. It was the best she could offer.

jan said...

Fiddle is a perfect name for your kittie. If you have not seen the movie, you might want to rent it. It is long - when I rented it several years ago - it was in 2 videos. Its a classic. Its a musical - great music and a great story about a Jewish family.

jan said...

Carol, your mother may have been a cold prickly, but you are a warm fuzzy. My kids see you as a warm, loving and generous person - me too.

jan said...

"You remember that book your read in grad school about touching" Carol, I think I still have that book somewhere - "Touching" or maybe "Touch" by Ashley Montague.
I think that book had a lot of meaning for me because when I was a child- I had some "bad touching" I have worked that all out through counseling now.
As children we can be damaged by lack of affection - expecially by parents and by touching that is not appropriate. I read somewhere that people who have had childhood experiences like us are "drawn" to the helping professions such as nursing or social work.

Carol said...

I didn't read that book first, you did. You read some of it to me. I have it also. Saw it the other day.

jan said...

I have always liked what Kahlil Gibran said about "children" in The Prophet htmhttp://www.geocities.com/Athens/5484/Gibran.htm
I need to study how to hyperlink.

Carol said...

The cat wrote a poem for you all.

Title: I have a name.


Fiddler is my name
and wiggle is my game.
I like it on the roof
and never much aloof.


Feel free to add to this poem. Fiddler needs help.

Carol said...

Jan, I used what Kahlil Gibran wrote about death in my mom's memorial service. It's beautiful as is most of his stuff.

Carol said...

Do you remember that little book, "The Little Prince", written by Antoine De Saint-Exupery? You gave me that book with a place highlighted in it about friends. Something about knowing when your friend was going to arrive so you could prepare your heart for the visit. The prince was talking to the fox, I think.

I hope we aren't running everyone off with our reminiscing.

jan said...

I have 2 copies of the "The Little Prince" I still like to read it once in a while. Some of the smallest books have the most to say.

Well, I too hope we are not keeping others out. I don't think we have before. Ya'all come on down!

I just read the section on "Death" It is beautiful. One I had not read before in the Prophet is on "Good and Evil" I like it a lot too.

Carol said...

There is a reason they call him The Prophet.

I just added Fiddler's pic to the end of this blog post.

Ivy Green said...

High diddle diddle,
The Cat and the Fiddle,
The Cow jump'd over the Moon,
The little dog laugh'd to see such Craft,
And the Dish ran away with the Spoon

Carol said...

I knew you could do it Ivy. Now what is it that Mark Twain said about parents and children? Something about how kids realize how smart their parent's are when they get older.

jan said...

Fiddler is my name
and wiggle is my game.
I like it on the roof
and never much aloof.

My friends are Carol and Maggie
also Ivy, Chloe, Solar and Jan
life is good,
as long as I don't fall off a roof
or get stuck in a can

jan said...

Boy, that is all I have left in me. I have tamed my angry throat and now I am sleepy - back to bed.

Carol said...

I don't know about your weather Jan, but today would be a good day to curl up with something or someone interesting. Cool and dreary outside.

Carol said...

And Ivy, I'm sure there are some dishes and spoons in my backyard. An old habit from my youth.

Carol said...

Chloe, Chloe, where are ought thou? Are we boring you to tears sister? Need your profound wisdom here.

Carol said...

Great contribution Jan.

Ivy Green said...

That's a Mother Goose rhyme, Carol. Usually we remember about the cow jumping over the moon, but I thought I remembered a cat and a fiddle. I hope Miss Fiddle Faddle likes her new name. As long as you have food, I'm sure she'll answer to anything.

Ivy Green said...

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

Mark Twain

Ivy Green said...

My little hummingbird has been visiting all morning. My spirit is restored.

Ivy Green said...

Mother Goose's resting places is one of the gravestones we visited in Boston this past summer.

There really was a Mother Goose?

Ivy Green said...

Ha! Never even knew about this Goose rhyme before...

"A cat came fiddling out of a barn,
With a pair of bagpipes under her arm;
She could sing nothing but fiddle cum fee,
The mouse has married the bumblebee."

Carol said...

That's the quote Ivy. Thanks, I tried but couldn't find it.

Carol said...

Cat's new name continues to increase in meaning.

Carol said...

And Ivy, kids are a little behind those in Twain's day. They can afford to take longer to grow up and come to the realization that Twain did at 21. It is more like 31 now.

Don't fret when you think your kids don't appreciate you. It will come.

I'm working on my gumbo this morning. I wish I could send you some Jan. It has the same healing qualities of chicken soup, in a Cajun sort of way. If you top your bowl with some chopped jalapenos, like I do, it will burn anything left of that sore throat right out of there. Opens up the sinuses too.

jan said...

Carol, I would love some gumbo. When I left LA I craved gumbo and boudin. Here in NM we have something similar - it has green chili peppers that are hot - it is green chili chicken soup - it is thick and hot. It will burn off or put hair on your chest -

jan said...

Well, as to your suggestion, I "crawled in bed with some student papers to grade" Before John went to church - he "laid hands" on me -(my head) and said a healing prayer - can't get much better than that.

Carol said...

I said something interesing Jan.

Solar said...

Carol,

I agree that there are some (very little) positive things that come out of a Church that gives the young example of spirituality, and love of the world and it inhabitants..the same goes for Sunday school.

The thing that you mention about the young seeing the hypocrisy of the church leaders...are confusing to them...and should not be taught at all......Lets remember the church history, any church...but lets take the Catholics.......they have had thousands of years to perfect the illusion of caring to teach the young to be a loving, and Christ like person...so they know how to manipulate the minds of the young..and to me that is called brain washing....sure they throw in some worth while teachings about the ten commandants...that are all common sense, and mostly a legal document of “ you should not steal my wife or my money, or my gold, or land...or I will kill you, and send you to hell” there actually is a book in the Bible that tell them to kill their own parents ...if they try to speak to them about another God....

So in the end...it is not about building a better human being, a better child..it is about the future of the church..and the children are always the future...no?

As far as organized religion....if it were ever to end....it would be the end (99%) of terrorism, and the back and forth of the Crusaders...the new ones..like black water, and the politicians that restrict schools about teaching the truths..to the young...its all about control for the young minds, in order to keep them safe for God.....but for which God...there are many ,and they all claim to be the real and only one:

This is where the all time problem comes from....look at the history-the very Hitler like-history, of the Popes,, they killed off millions of people, and just for them having a new Pope...you see, they were afraid of the last popes influence on the people of the new pope...lots of interesting history....

We should not brain wash the young...we baptize them when they are baby's, and anyone can do this...even with tap water, and saying the words...it is considered legal, in the churches eyes, ant they are catholic for life....how very convenient no?

We should teach the sciences in the same class along with religion as far as im concerned...let them have a choice....the real world, or the world of myth....

In todays world-modern world, the children have many, many places to go to on Sunday...they even have cars to get them to the camps, or the parents take them in their suv's...the poor, are the ones that are targeted for Sunday church....they are the ones that need to pray to god...for themselves and for a job , so they can get food on the table....when the rich pray, its for more power to keep the poor in place...they just don't understand why their parents did not leave them a fortune...

Lastly. I do understand what you mean when you say that some churches and some of the people do the right things,, and that not all churches are bad, and not all of its leaders either...but I see them as enablers for the bad ones...the huge mega tv evangelist, that teach the hate..the powerful members like our past president Bush...that push the hate... ...all religions are the one and only true religion....and all of the others are false...that what they say to themselves,

This is why there is so much war, cos all of the others do not matter, they are not real people if they are not one of an organized religion......think about it...all of the Greed, hate, and harm that is done....is done by religion.


All of the land that has been taken thru out time, by the church form people, killed by the church for their riches...have built the churches that teach hypocrite...just part of it all....lots more, but....

Carol said...

Churches can be evil. People can be evil. Evil people will often look for something to justify their evil and religion works for some. Like the kid we have in jail who justified his brutally killing this old, sick dog, because when he was a kid, a dog bite him in the face.

We really do need a place to help nurture spirituality, especially for the young. I think more options are popping up these days. Parent's often don't take the time and school doesn't do it. Would you even want some of those teachers teaching morality? How do we help nurture moral development?

You, Solar, took the time to do it with your son. But even though you have anger toward the church, you were probably influenced positively before you were influenced negatively. Hey I'm just throwing out things to think about. That's our mission here. To ponder. But do ponder with an open mind. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Solar said...

Lots of errors, sorry. going to have to slow down and proof read one of these day's...maybe tomorrow.

Carol said...

And when I went to church as a kid I didn't have a clue of all the wars that were fought in the name of religion. I didn't know that there were religious people doing nasty things. But they did mention sin and that we are all capable of it. I guess that was what they were talking about.

I kind of like that Golden Rule and the, what goes around comes around, rule. Those are the two rules that influence me the most. And I don't believe that by asking God for forgiveness that we clear the slate.

Carol said...

And Chloe, I know you don't particularly care to discuss religion but we have so many options here. There's Mother Goose, kitty poetry, touch, warm fuzzies and cold prinklies, The Prophet, The Little Prince, Mark Twain, etc, etc.

Solar said...

Carol,

You should not interpret my passion to speak against religion, and the churches as hate...if that were so, I could not love all of the people on earth..or my family, or you, or myself..

My passion against the church is for the end of its teachings, and not the end of its people..although i do hate the fn priest and some nuns that have harmed, children, and any adult...

I have many members of family, that are in many different religions..I love them all...but can see that they don't share that with all of their own family..they hate the though of their own cousins praying to a false god, and have stopped interacting with them...

this is after they have grown up together as one, t hey shared everything...in one church, now that they have been converted to new faiths...they have no need for each other...or anyone else that is not like themselves.......

I just can't see why you would like an institution that has done so much harm to women and children in the name of god...regardless of the little good that some do..but I will respect that right...

I did not teach my son to be god, or Jesus like...I thought him to love his fellow man...all of em, and he takes it from there..he is a nice man of 34 that is spiritual to me.....

I thought it was so sad, when Bush told the world that he doesn't listen to his own Father, he listens to a higher power...really?, what did that higher power tell him....that is why you don't see any remorse in him or Cheney...they don't mind killing a lot of people that aren't like them......

jan said...

Carol, define interesting? (LOL)

jan said...

Solar,
I am sitting here trying to decide whether to get into this discussion. I only speak from my own experience.

I believe that much that is evil has been done in the name of religion - but some good comes out of it too. Sister Theresa was one who devoted her life to the care of others. Some churches feed the poor. I have never been in favor of going to other countries and trying to convert the peoples in those countries to a particular belief. The one problem I have with many religions is the belief that theirs is the only true path to God.
Just with religion - there is both good and evil in other institutions - such as Government and Education.

I question whether religious organizations should be free from taxation?

jan said...

Chloe, Did you see a movie yesterday?

Ivy, I sure would love to see a hummingbird. We have had some woodpeckers lately - and of course an occasional roadrunner runs through our yard. It is great that the hummer lifted your spirits.

Carol said...

I agree with all. Mother Theresa, they revealed, was terribly depressed for most of her life. It seems that she was down right miserible. Also heard she couldn't touch people with AIDS. I wonder if that was true?

I learned a little about the Gnostic Gospels when reading Bart Ehrman. Now that was interesting. There were some interesting religions way back, some that even worshipped women, but the people were killed when the big boys found out.

Solar, tell me about your experience as a young boy in the Church. You were raised in Mexico? Catholicism is big down there. I like the story of Our Lady of Guadaloupe.

I'm not Catholic as you might remember from the war I had at TM. You remember when I mentioned I went to communion. I really pissed off Oregon Democrat for breaking that little rule.

There were several people over at the Trail who jumped on me, with both feet, but old Brian wasn't one of them.

Carol said...

I've been trying to get our little Chloe to come out and play. Hope everything is OK with her today.

Ivy, I bought a couple of new feeders at the WM yesterday. I wanted them so I could keep them warm at night and replace the ones I have outside each morning. Chloe said not to worry but after learning what she linked for us, I am worrying. Can't help it.

I haven't seen my hummers at the feeder but they are drinking from some flowers next door.

Ivy Green said...

Solar,
Have you read a book, "The God Part of the Brain?"

The God Part of the Brain

It's on my shelf, but I haven't read it...someone lent it to me, and it's waiting until I get-a-round-tuit.

Carol said...

If weird stuff has been happening here, it ain't ghosts. I added a pic of my gumbo. Come on over for a bowl. There's plenty.

Carol said...

There was a famous writer, I think in about Freud's time, who was an atheist but started believing later in life. Do you know who I am referring to? Was it Lewis? I'm no literary genus here, I guess you realize that. More of a literary moron.

Carol said...

Think it was CS Lewis.

Solar said...

Im Back,

I just went and put out all of the garbage for my neighbor, I cut her grass and try to help out..that makes me feel good..

Ivy,

No, I haven't read that book, but will...looks very interesting...the part of the brain that needs a god figure is our need for our parent figure...that sadly most times is not there..imo..but will look to forward to reading that...thanks.

Jan,
You just did jump in, and with a very good statement...there is no need to be disagreeable when someone does not agree with something with us....that said..CAROL what the hell are you talking about.....no just kidding honey...you are making a lot of sense.

Its just that the few examples that we can make about the very few caring people that do care...is like a drop of rain water in the ocean...the harm that had been done by religion, can not be ever measured. imo

Mother T. Im not sure was so nice at first...she has a reputation, (christapher Hitchens book) I haven't read or com pared anything about her...just what I have heard...by people that just repeat that she was a saint...so are you...by the way that you treat others...thats what is god like....treat your family, others like you would treat god...period...not kneel and say some stupid enslaving chant..., the Bible, and relgions have been made written by men, in order to have power over women..all women, different religions were made up, cos some of the men (kings) wanted part of the action...if it wasn't for power, and money,,,do you really think that we would have religion at all?

There are about 122 books in the bible that say...we don't know who wrote this book...but you must believe in it...what the F is that...people have been killing them selves all of this time, and don;t know this...they don't even (lazy shits) read their own hate mail...they let the man with the pretty dress tell them how to hate...

Carol, I have been an alter boy here in the states...not one bad experience that I can remember...just some shit nun that made it hell for me to exist ...

The Lady Of Guadalupe is just another full of shit fable...it appeared to an Indian all of a sudden when the Spaniards wanted to control the populations, in other ways other than brute force..they needed slaves for themselves,,,,,my mothers side of the family were very very very rich, and catholic,, they enslaved entire towns...thats another subject for later..and that im still finding out about...thats another thing about religion...lots ,and lots of secrets...

Religions have been about power,and taking the peoples lands, and money from them...even a church law that states that you must sigh over any lands that you own to the church...or used to....when a nunn enters the church,,,she marry's god...and god is a male..that they teach the nuns to obey,,the marriage vows, that my Mom and others took seriously, and let the shit husbands beat them...teach that they have to put up with that...lots more..but

Solar said...

Ivy,

Geez that book looks interesting..cos of the brain mappings that evolved ...and the need to be spiritual..the brain grew the feeling of spirituality and we invented religion...

Just looking over my tapes of evolution,,for that last post..Im glad that i did it about dogs...hardly anyone knows that we at one time did not have bones, we were sponges.in the ocean...so much to learn and understand about evolution that is complicated....

lots easier to just believe in god..which is just fervent hope to me....hope to live on forever.....what we don't see is that we really do live on forever...re-incarnation is real!!, but not like what people might think its like.........

Solar said...

About Chloe,

I wouldn't worry about her..she will jump in when she gets the chance,,she will be surprised at how much she needs to catch up on...she loves to be part of our group therapy..in fact she needs it the most...she is a little......

Dang, just got myself in trouble again...huh Lucy...hahaa

Carol said...

Thanks Solar. Many people believe in God and Jesus because they are afraid not to. Don't want to chance going to hell. It's already hot enough in the summer down here in Lousiana.

Carol said...

It was 60 and windy when I got up this morning. You'd think it was freezing the way I'm dressed. I have on warm ups and a sweat jacket.

Solar said...

Ivy,

From that site that you linked about that book.





“Excellent”

Edward O. Wilson,
Pulitzer Prize Winner; Author of Sociobiology and Consilience

"Alper uses a Socratic technique to brilliantly and flawlessly argue that our concepts of spirit and God are derived from the mechanics of our brain...enormously important...full of scientific and philosophical truths."

Mark Waldman, senior editor, Transpersonal Review

"Hauntingly Logical..Fascinating"

Art Bell, "Coast to Coast am”


From what I have learned-or tried to learn, this is what I have come up with...but with the help, mostly by The philosopher
Barach spinoza:

"Spinoza's God
That is, god cannot be something outside nature that controls it, but must necessarily be part of it. According to Spinoza, God IS nature. ...

The vendenta eastern religion would be the one that comes close to this...

We are it, it is it, they are it. I am it, now if we take all of the knowledge that is out there and combine them..evolution, astronomy, etc etc...there is not doubt in my mind that we are all it..all a part of god...so we are all gods.....and that is that...:-)))) that was for you Jan...you seem to like my weird sense of humor...ahahah

Any way even Einsteing held Spinoza as his equal, or his better,,he admired him..they lived at the same time...Have you notice that a lot of great minds lived in or around that area..not that there is any now...but with computors..

Spinoza, tied it all together the mind, and the brain, and the body funtions of body proper, ans such...

Solar said...

Sorry Carol, I will shut up now...I have talked soooo much in the last two days...now its all your turns...

Carol said...

Don't shut up Solar. I've been the noisy one this morning. I tried to shut up and it didn't work.

Carol said...

I do believe we all have God within us. I like that salutation of Namaste. The divinity within me honors the divinity within you.

Ivy Green said...

Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace laureate and Holocaust survivor, spoke at my daughter's school in a rare personal appearance in 2007. I took notes. One of the comments I wrote down from the address was the simple declarative sentence, "He exists."

Like many, I have doubted, especially when things aren't going "my way." But I have decided that whether He exists or not, and it's not up to me to determine, I do feel better when I believe He does than when I don't.

Carol said...

Were you born in Alabama Ivy? If so, were you raised Southern Baptist? If not, what?

Ivy Green said...

Carol,

No, I wasn't born in Alabama, but I have cousins who were born and raised here. Never thought I'd end up here, but here I am, surrounded by Southern Baptists! We were raised Catholic, but like many, have strayed. Lately, have come to appreciate more the education and values I got there. I have carried them forward. Ironically, my late sister, who once punched a nun in the stomach, is the only one who remained a church-going Catholic. (My mom still goes to church, but not every Sunday.)

Ivy Green said...

I have come to appreciate the strong religious faith that surrounds me. I've learned to take what I like and leave the rest.

Ivy Green said...

My brothers are strongly religious and committed to their faiths...witness the missions to Tibet. I don't even know what denominations they are, and to me it doesn't matter.

Ivy Green said...

Alabama is #2. Roll that Tide.

Carol said...

LSU didn't do well yesterday or the week before even though they won then. I will have to reconsider that bet against Alabama Ivy.

Carol said...

I kind of like the concept of God. Haven't fleshed out exactly what I believe. I do think our souls have maybe planned what we are here to learn while on this earth. Maybe that is why I think I have this destiny. Maybe I planned it out prior to coming.

I do think we have things we must learn while here if we don't learn it we repeat similar experiences until we do. Kind of like school.

Solar said...

I have a nephew, that is a very nice man...tell us that after he had 3 daughters in a row,,and giving up on a son...now that he had one by accident..he won't let him be anyway near girl toys, and that if he grows up to be gay,,that he will not be his father any longer...his faith won't let him be one....I was thinking to myself...I will take him you shit....

Most religious people that i have known...are very religious, cos they have had some sort of extreme life pain...and had to turn to some god to pray to.

Just like drunks, and junkies do..some make it, some don't ..the ones that do ..thank god, the ones that don't-don't blame him...whats up with that??

The studies that I have seen in there have been studies that..shows that there is no difference in the amount of people that quit drinking, thru the AA system or the church, than when someone quits by different means...

I quite cos-it wasn't healthy for me...and smoking to...not a struggle of will power..

but understanding, of why I started in the first place...and that had to do with very religious parents, that did anything that the church said to do...and some more...like own your spouse and beat the hell out of her...

In Mexico, and other countries..Papa= the government, and Mama= the church..

Might paint your house on the outside, so it looks like everything is just fine...but the inside is wasting away...religion is like that..on the outside..looks kinda good, on the inside..even the most religious knows it all bs. deep inside they know...just like there is no-one that really has told the priest the truth in confession, abut themselves, or their thoughts....

Carol said...

I read or heard something the other day about how many people were moving away from organized religion. Whatever it was... mentioned like 70% were moving away from organized religion.

Something else you may find interesting Solar re: you quitting drinking and smoking. When I did diabetes education I found that as a group, men were more disciplined than women when it came to changing habits. Diabetes requires a lot of changing habits.

This was not formal research, just my observations. There were very disciplined women and very undisciplined men but as a group, men were better. Since it wasn't real research, you can't generalize that to the population as a whole.

My theory, and of course you know I have one, is that women have these damn fluctuating hormones that screw us up. Plus we have to take care of you men and that also screws us up. I have no man and few hormones left so I don't know what my excuse it, but I know it is a good one, when I figure it out.

Carol said...

Ivy, do you track what birds come to your place for the Winter? In the Winter, I get the Caroline Chckadee, the American Goldfinch, not gold in the Winter, and the Chipping Sparrow.

Solar said...

Carol,

Funny. I do think that women have it harder than men..in almost all things....and know that they are the better of the two sexes (women that is)...I have read some books on Anthropology, and they show that this to be true.

What happened along the way is that the women needed the mens protection from the other tribes that would rape them or beat them....they had to raise big strong men.....to defend them...they would rather get beat, and raped by their own...

If it wasn't for the war like men that had to be at war most of the time...the women would not have to need the protection...and they could have increased the number of women by several ways..they could have killed off a lot of the male baby's, trained the males to not be aggressive, and gained control that way.

I think that now with modern weapons, women will finally in time be equal to men..they don't need to be as physically strong as them...and then watch out...

When we stopped being nomadic, and became farmers..that was the end of the equality of women..imo...

Carol said...

There is no doubt that we need you guys for you strength. We just don't have those big muscles. There are other things that ya'll are good at, especially when you learn that you can show that soft tender side and don't have to prove you're superior.

Chloe said...

Wow, It's going to take me a while to catch up. I haven't read any of this thread, and I still need to catch up on the last one. So, in my usual half-ass fashion, I just read the last 5 comments here, which happen to be Carol and Solar discussing the equality/inequality of the sexes.

I think that both sexes are equally important, equally intelligent, and equally necessary. I don't know that much about the Yin and Yang theory, but I do agree with the concept of it taking both to complete the whole. I love that balance thing it creates, I love that the two are so different, and that one (in my mind) completes the other. However, yin-yang could probably be any two people that were couple, or even a group of people for that matter, since no one person is completely yin or completely yang.

I might joke once in a while about one sex or the other being superior to the other, but I never believe it.

Yin and Yang from the Tao Te Ching
"When people see things as beautiful,
ugliness is created.
When people see things as good,
evil is created.

Being and non-being produce each other.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low oppose each other.
Fore and aft follow each other."

Chloe said...

Ok, Now where to begin, today's thread or yesterdays? The end or the top. Decisions, decisions.

Chloe said...

Carolina Chickadee

American Goldfinch

Chipping Sparrow

Carol, Which one of your winter birds is smallest. I'm still wondering what my tiny little (what looked like) olive green bird was last year. I saw it about the time every tree (oak) was completely bear. The ones you mentioned in your post all look small.

Chloe said...

I'll watch more closely this year, but I could swear I saw blue jays and cardinals (although fewer than normal) throughout the winter. Maybe I'm wrong though.

My hummingbird nectar went down about an inch again in the last couple days. I find I have to be sitting here more often, to notice how man there are, and I haven't been in this room much.

Carol said...

That olive bird was probably the American Goldfinch. It has an olive color in the Winter Chloe. I had tons of them here.

Carol said...

Chloe,

You better get to reading sister because you have lots of commenting to do. You probably can't even go to bed tonight. That's alright cuz I have tomorrow off so I can stay up too.

Solar said...

About time that you showed up.!

Carol- your 2:26 pics please....

Carol said...

Yes Chloe, the Cardinals are here all year. I was just asking about your newbies for the Winter.

I didn't see one hummer at my feeders today after warming up some fresh stuff today. That's appreciation for ya. I mentioned I did see them doing some flower though.

Carol said...

What pics are you talking about Solar? I was talking about you guys. Look in the mirror buddy.

Carol said...

I like what you wrote in 3:10 post Chloe.

Solar said...

Don't play so innocent with me...I caought you this time..your busted.!

"There are other things that ya'll are good at, especially when you learn that you can show that soft tender side and don't have to prove you're superior."

Pics please....

Ivy Green said...

Glad you're here, Chloe! Missed 'ya...hope you had a good weekend.

Carol said...

Interesting, I just saw a hummer at my feeder. Remember when they said we should take the perch off our feeders so they have to hover, when it's cool, to keep their metobolism up. It was hovering. It didn't sit to drink. It didn't need some dumb human to make that adjustment.

Chloe said...

Whew, finally! MG Solar, I just saw what you said in your 11:46 post, and you know me so well. You actually knew I'd be somewhat overwhelmed at how much I'd have to catch up on, and that I'd be here just as soon as I could. (I like your new picture. That's what I need, a dog that cleans up after himself)

Love the name you chose for your cat Carol. Fiddle, very cute. Maggie has good taste.

I really enjoyed reading the conversation from this morning. Carol, you asked if you were boring me this morning, and the answer to that is 'NEVER!' I would have been here if I could have. I'm just thankful that the talk is still waiting for me, even when I get here late.

Jan, Didn't see a movie yesterday, but saw Couples today with Vince Vaughn today. It was a cute movie, but not great. Funny though, and that's what I neded.

"My mother had a great deal of trouble with me, but I think she enjoyed it."
Mark Twain

Carol said...

You'll have to step a little closer so I can get a shot of you Solar. I don't have that much zoom on that little digital camera.

Chloe said...

Oh no, I just refreshed and I have to catch up again!!

Chloe said...

What a prolific bunch we've got here. (someone said that at TM the other day, commented how 'prolific' they were.

Carol, My hummers always hover. You saw the picture of it, they eat from the flower shaped part of the feeder. I just looked up now and had 2 of the tiniest ones I've ever seen so far. They said the immature are the last to go, so I guess it's getting down to the babies now.

I sure did miss you guys. I thought I'd never catch up. Ivy, you haven't been here much either.

Chloe said...

back shortly.

Carol said...

We're glad your home Chloe. It's just not the same when someone in the family is missing.

Poor Solar. You are destined to always have a bunch of women around you aren't you? Well, you could be bragging about that.

Carol said...

Chloe, Ivy named the kitty. She came up with Fiddle or Fiddler. I like Fiddler. Has a ring to it and very unique. She said she liked it. I just went over to feed her.

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
My fall/winter feeder will have all the usual suspects, and some unusual ones too, if I'm lucky. I love my wrens, chickadees and titmice. The cardinals, of course. Different species of woodpeckers, the Downy, the Hairy, The Red-Bellied, the Red-Headed (!) and if I'm very very lucky, the Pileated. The nuthatches -white-breasted and brown-headed are very entertaining. Naturally, we have the blackbirds and their kin that wipe out the seed in ten minutes. I'm not bothered too much by starlings (watch them show up tomorrow in the hundreds now that I've said that). Down by the water will be the wintering geese. We have resident red-shouldered hawks. I'd never before seen as many brown thrashers as there are in Alabama. The mockingbird will be here, but surprisingly, I do not see its cousin, the Catbird. There's a smaller gray and white bird - the Slate-Colored Junco - who's not supposed to be here, but I do see him (he can't read the field guide). Robins seem to stay around all winter, and so do the bluebirds - they even come to my seed feeder when they're really hungry. The kingfisher may or may not be here. How could I forget the Mourning Dove?

What field guides do you guys have? I have them all, but my favorite and most useful is the "National Geographic Field Guide to the Birds of North America."

Ivy Green said...

Chloe,
I thought I was particularly loquacious today..ha ha! That's what an introvert thinks who says more than three words at once! lol

Carol said...

I have the tufted Titmouse also.

I use the National Geographic Field Guide also. It's the only birdbook I have out here.

Carol said...

Speak English Ivy. I'm from Louisiana don't ya know. If you mean talkative say that. I don't do crossword puzzles.

I remember a time when my older sister and I were having this email war. It was when mom was dying and I was stressing her with the details of mom's demise, hey misery does love company.

She wrote me something about my being vitriolic. I had to look up that word. I wrote her back using another big word. I had to use a Thesaurus just to find a big one that was appropriate for the situation.

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
Did your kitty really say she wanted to be called "Fiddler?" I almost suggested that, but I thought she wouldn't like it (actually, I thought Maggie wouldn't like it). I settled on "Fiddle." Actually, I do like pairing it with "Faddle." Fiddle-Faddle...it suits her picture. :)

Ivy Green said...

I worked hard on that word, Carol. Spell-checkered, it and all.

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
Your sister must be a member of the POEM society. Professional Organization of English Majors.

Ivy Green said...

I didn't make that up myself.

Ivy Green said...

You all watching the 60 Minutes report about sports concussions?

Carol said...

I was just kiddin. I do have the Wiktionary bookmarked.

You did mention Fiddler, Ivy. At least I thought you did.

Carol said...

Wiktionary doesn't help if I can't spell the word. I use Google, they know there are a lot of idiots like me who can't spell.

Carol said...

Have it on Ivy. I bet there are a lot of concussions that come off the football field. Didn't seem to slow down the Tebow last night. I was hoping it would.

Carol said...

Football is a brutal sport. It hurts me to watch it.

Carol said...

Ivy, are you watching that flying off the mountain thing on 60 minutes? My legs are jelly just watching it.

Chloe said...

She's a pretty cat Carol. And Ivy, I think that was a great name choice, one I've never even thought of, and I've given a lot of time thinking about different pet names throughout the years. I like the way you took into consideration his tendency to climb up onto the roof. Fiddler on the roof... perfect.

Ivy, Coleen was surprised to hear that I have the characteristics of an introvert, when I mentioned to Jan that you and I had discussed it in the past, right here on Carol's site. To me, it's importantly about that one characteristic we talked about, being stimulated (or overly stimulated) by a small amount of interaction. That, and spending a lot of time inside our own heads. A little goes a long way for me.

Carol, When I was here by myself earlier, there were two people showing up from Houston at one point (counting me), and I noticed there are two different people from England. One of them was here at the same time as me for about 20 mins, or longer. I didn't check the map again after that.

Carol said...

Chloe, if you put your pointer over the stars, you can see the name of the city. It listed Ilford, Bradford and Glascow. I wonder if the Glascow are Ivy's friends?

Chloe said...

I looked up loquacious, and it says it means garrulous. A lot of good that did me. Thank goodness it also said it meant very talkative.

Carol said...

Still would like to know how they find us?? Is it by accident or by googling a subject?

Chloe said...

Yes, I have spent some time with that map. I seem to be getting more and more interested in it. I wonder who the other Houston person is. I don't think there's anyone on TM from Houston, but there is from Dallas. We have one Dallas start too.

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
Hubs was like, "Whoaa!" watching that bird-man segment. I said, NO. Just..NO...no other word needed. No.

There must be some rush they are addicted to, like addicts. There was a lot of interesting "brain food" on the show tonight. Even Andy's sleepy-brain.

Carol said...

Yes, I'm increasing my vocabulary. I know that will come in handy at the jail.

Ivy Green said...

Our friends are farther north than Glasgow.

Chloe said...

I think we'll have to go to blogspot.com and not sign in, and look around that way to see how they can just run across the site. I'm sure Gage was probably just looking around, and she's into photography, and like the hummer picture. At least she mentioned the picture, and that's it.

Carol said...

Something's missing in those guys brains to do that.

Chloe said...

You've probably picked up a whole 'new' vocabulary at that jail.

Ivy Green said...

Chloe,
Me and you, we are "I's in E Clothing." lol

Carol said...

Someone who is brave here could go over to her site and ask her. She seems like she would be open to talk. She doesn't get very many comments. You wanna do it Chloe?

Chloe said...

What happened to Solar. And who did he bust?
I bet ya he's over gabbing at TM. I haven't been there today.

Carol said...

Yep Ivy. I could write my own jail dictionary.

They say "the world", which means anything that is out of jail.

When they say "a minute" like when you ask how long they will be in jail. They say "I'll be here a minute". I get excited thinking they're on their way out. No such luck. It means they will be there for quite a while.

Chloe said...

I just looked at TM, and there's a new post about John McCain. I can't believe it, there's more posts here today than there. Man, are we a talkative group.

Chloe said...

Well put Ivy.. we've got them fooled

Carol said...

OK, you lost me on that one. Speak English again. I'm slow.

Chloe said...

They've got each other for roll models Carol. I feel sorry for them when they get out. I mean, that sounds ironic, but you've said many times that they often find ways to get back in.

Chloe said...

Carol, Are you asking about the post of Ivy's I linked?

Chloe said...

If so, I=introvert and E=extrovert

Chloe said...

Solar, Where are you. You're not hiding over at TM (unless you're lurking there).

Carol said...

Yes Chloe, I am.

Ivy, it doesn't take the newbies at the jail very long to catch on to the lingo there. You see these guys that usually don't spend much time in that kind of an environment but are talking like they belong there. They don't want to look out of place.

Carol said...

They called me this evening about a guy that got a cup of hot coffee thrown at him. Hit him in the face and chest. Burned him pretty bad.

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
I think their slang inversions are pretty clever uses of language, actually. You watch, those will be mainstream before too long.

Chloe said...

Carol, I just read your comments over at TM from earlier today. Good stuff. You were very nice to Craig, and I like that you talked about placebos a little. I saw what you said here about their effect on many people the other day. It's a darn good idea, that you plant the idea of what he expected effects of the medicine you prescribe are. It's kinda strange, when you realize what the mind can do. Too bad we can't learn to make better use of it.

Carol said...

Gotcha. I'm an I too. One might not think it when they see me but I am. Some think I'm just a snob or aloof but I'm not. That's why I enjoy this kind of interaction.

Chloe said...

Same here. I knew there was a common thread (I'm not talking about computer thread either) between us all.

Carol said...

Ivy, the dumb way inmates where their pants caught on out of jail. You know with the crotch way down to their knees. My nephew was wearing his that way. I told him to pull them up before his penis fell out.

Chloe said...

Extroverts are probably out someplace crowded, not on the computer, now that I think of it.

Chloe said...

Carol, Now there's THREE people from Spain. I wish they would talk to us. Can you imagine how much FUN that would be.

Chloe said...

Not Spain, I meant ENGLAND.

Chloe said...

.. although I like Spain too.

Carol said...

I agree with that placebo effect Chloe and use it every oportunity I get.

Ivy Green said...

Maybe we need Solar to write something ?en EspaƱol?

Solar, you may envy my travel, but I envy your bilinguality.

Chloe said...

Your gumbo looked really good Carol. I bet it's all gone, huh?

Ivy Green said...

I'm seeing the British Invasion...they must be googling the castles or something...some-thing's catching their notice. Not a coincidence.

Chloe said...

Solar, Talk to us. English or Spanish. I know you always have 'something' to say. We need to spice up our little reality show here.

Chloe said...

I bet that's it Ivy. The Castles!

Carol said...

or the hummers. It could be an interest in hummer also.

Chloe said...

I don't know. I just did a search, and blogspot doesn't come up. There must be some other way.

Carol said...

That's interesting. I was thinking the same thing just this morning about trying to learn a little Spanish. I tried to teach myself a long time ago but never got a chance to use it so lost it.

Carol said...

Need to ask Gage ya'll.

Chloe said...

I just did a search for Carols Southern Spice, and you site is the first thing to come up. It makes you look famous Carol. I did my search on yahoo. Try google, to see if it's the same. 'Course, why would they search for that, unless they've heard of it.

Carol said...

Hey guys, look up at the top of the blog. There's a place that says Next Blog. Maybe they were just looking through those.

Chloe said...

Good idea. Why don't you go to her site, and tell her how much we enjoyed her photographs, etc. Then casually ask her. Tell her we're just curious. Then add, we hope she'll come back.

Chloe said...

Mystery solved!

Carol said...

I clicked through a few and came up with several foreign blogs.

Chloe said...

Maybe we should try to do some posts to lure them in here. Make it very welcoming. Get Ivy to talk about England some more.

Ivy Green said...

I have studied several languages, but none of them "stuck." You have to live with a language on almost a daily basis. Even in the U.K., I sometimes had to ask for a repeat, and they me, because of word-differences and accents.

Obviously, even entering a different environment, like jail, sparks needs for new ways of speaking and comprehending. Language is so organic, that's what's fascinating about it to me.

Ivy Green said...

I'm not going to do that "Next Blog" thing. I did that a month or two ago. I landed by accident on some questionable sites, and almost at once, I got those viruses, if you remember.

Carol said...

Wear gloves or don't touch anything Ivy. May need a mask also.

Carol said...

You can google this blog. Ever tried it?

Chloe said...

Yes Ivy, language is all about Culture. Look how much it varies in the United States, from region to region. Not just words, but accents and emphasis. You can tell so much about a person, by how they speak.

Then there's slang, and that makes it all the more interesting. I can't even imagine being able to learn another language.

Carol knows another language, in the medical field. They have a whole vocabulary of their own. As you do in most fields.

Ivy Green said...

My Scottish cookbook came with my Craig books. I'm still perusing it to see if any of the delicacies we enjoyed have recipes there...then I thought I would do that food post. Don't rush me though, I may have to experiment with the recipes first. And I am not a cook. If Hubs didn't feed me, I'd be a corpse.

Chloe said...

I searched it on yahoo Carol. 'Carols southern spice' and your blog came up along with a description (which I didn't read, but I'll go back and look again). You search it on Google, I'll use yahoo again.

Carol said...

Does Hubs cook Ivy?

Carol said...

All the blog posts come up on google if you go to find more.

Chloe said...

Here's what my search says:
"Carol's Southern Spice
Carol's Southern Spice "The Swamp" A Place To Ponder. Sunday, September 27, 2009. A Ruined Castle... Patsi Bale Cox. Tonyb39. Ivy Green. Carol. solarcrete ...
ct-carolssouthernspice.blogspot.com -"

.. and it links to here.

Ivy Green said...

I was really complimented when one of our cab drivers in Scotland said I had a "nice accent." Although I didn't understand him when he said it, and I had to ask Hubs afterward, "What did he say?" lolol

Carol said...

Does Hubs cook Ivy?

Carol said...

How does he feed you?

Solar said...

Ok, Ok, I just got back from talking to one of my neighbors...I can hear you all the way down the block...you all might be I's but are you LOUD.hahah

Just kidding, and you won't believe this, but until I start blogging...tm was my first..this one will be my last. I thought of myself as a semi-introvert..

If im around a lot of freinds..i like to listen to them talk, and analize what they are saying, and learn from them...

If Im around just one or two of them, I contribute to the conversation. I have always had an older friend..actually I preferred them, and learned a lot...

with them it was a lot easier to talk about worldly things...make sense..I have always had women freinds..that why Im comfortable around them. they seemed to like that I could take them for what they were,,just another human being.

Most people that I have known, were just acquaintances..not freinds..I don't have the time to put up with bs..at least not when I was younger, and going out and playing a lot of sports...

Ivy,

Virtual travel is starting to happen,and will be very big,,we will be able to visit Scotland, right from our living room, Salomon as good as being there...time travel is not out of this world..

just out of this dimension for now...actually we already time traveled..

Carol said...

Are your friends in Scotland close to Glascow?

Carol said...

Virtual travel wouldn't be too bad if they could get that food over to you. I like to eat when I travel.

Solar said...

something ate my word almost, and put up Salomon...have no idea..im a bad speller..but not piss poor HA!

Ivy Green said...

Hubs cooks (thank God).

No, Glasgow is pretty far from Aberdeen.

Ivy Green said...

Uh oh, we're about to hit 200 posts. Somebody quick, put up a new thread.

Aberdeen to Glasgow (Scotland) is 145 miles.

Ivy Green said...

On the other hand, Aberdeen, Maryland to Glasgow, Delaware is only 25 miles.

Solar said...

Chloe,

Thats what I meant a few wks back: when I said that I felt that I could be two places at one time....I did not explain cos we went off to some other topic, or something like that...but we will be able to be at a business meeting at one place, while staying home

physically....holograms are already happening...better yet holographic time travel..

I won't say beam me up Scottie, cos I never liked that show...well I did the show, but not the actor...William Shatner...once I saw him in an interview..real life..he kept talking like a tough guy...I dont like tough guys...

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