Sunday, November 29, 2009

What is real: in the world of blogging?


I was just thinking of what I can say that would take out a little bit of the sting that Ivy is feeling. I don't know her friend, but it is enough that she knows her, for me to sympathize.

I think that is an unexpected side effect that blogging does to us. We get to know each other for a little while, but then become good friends. This type of blog world is not any different, sometimes, than the real world. We get to know each other, little by little, and then at some point we are feeling the same things (as if we knew each other in the flesh).

Strange, this blogging world: that can bring so many diverse people together, that would never have known each other in the real world. I feel that this is part of my real world now!! I feel the happiness and the sadness of all 'here' at the swamp.

Copied and Posted for Solar.

201 comments:

1 – 200 of 201   Newer›   Newest»
Chloe said...

Solar, That is a beautiful, heartfelt post you wrote there. It was just 'stuck' in limbo, and needed to be brought back to life. Thanks for writing it.

Chloe said...

.. from the last thread:

"Well, Im glad that everything is back to normal...and you are back to picking at you favorite target....Me.!"

Solar, I guess I kid around with you a little 'too' much, but I wasn't picking on you last night. If you're talking about my saying that the 'suspense was killing me', I meant it. You were supposed to tell me what will happen when we reach zero, and I wanted to hear 'your version' of what it was'. (ha! I hang onto your every word Solar)

Chloe said...

... also from the last thread:

Carol, I love that passage from Ivy's poem that you quoted:
"You never know
What will change the world-
a word lightly spoken,
a touch from a stranger,
a glance from a woman
in a red dress,
or a flower opening in your garden."

An excerpt from a poem or song can be even more beautiful and meaningful than the whole reading, because it gives you a better focus on a favorite passage. I'm so impressed that you chose this one.

It ties into what you've been saying about 'not worrying' and the caution that needs to be taken to focus on the right things (and to not focus on the wrong things). We 'always' have choices, and I think our most important job as living souls is to 'always' remember that.

Chloe said...

OK, out and about!

Coreen said...

Solar,

A most genuine, real post...filled with sentiments I suspect are shared by all here.

Solar said...

Chloe,

That was the lost post; thank you. It was not finished, or edited; but I put it up, so we could get out of the other one..fast...

No when I said that everything is back to normal, and Im your favorite target to pick on; that it is good to be back to normal...

Solar said...

Carol, Coreen,


There is my jamies pic...where are yours? Real ones.!

Ivy Green said...

Thank you, Solar and Chloe, for your team effort on my behalf, the kind words and the cartoon. Humor always helps when dealing with loss. I have been reading the comics again recently. My favorites are "Non Sequitur" and "Ziggy." "Dilbert" brings back many funny memories of my time in "the organization." A quirky new one (new to me, at least) is "The New Adventures of Queen Victoria." lol

Ivy Green said...

The New Adventures of Queen Victoria

Solar said...

Part of that lost post, is still lost.

I explained in it; that when I started my construction company, that I had one Idea of how I would treat, and interact with my employees....I was totally wrong...100%

I thought that all they had to do was to show up for work..I would train them in the way that I wanted too....I did this, but other things kept getting in the way.

They became my friends..along the way..lots, of interaction, with them, and about thier families..became an important part of how they performed at work..I manged to take a few of them off drugs.

Was invited to weddings, and other family functions, that made us an family extension of our own....I still maintained a very dicsiplined work attitude..but that was by example and they accepted it much better..they called me the General..when I got to heavy with the way that I treated them...I knew to back off a little...that was their way of putting in a complaint against tyranny...but all in all I felt, responsible for them, and for their families..up to a point that is...but I knew things about them, that their families didn't know....I got to know them so well that I could tell what they were thinking by the way they walked..or worked....and I felt the happiness or sadness for them......

Carol said...

Nice post Solar and thanks Chloe for putting it up.

And Solar, it takes certain skills/talents to be a good supervisor/manager. You seem to have them. I don't possess them. I think there are a lot of people in those positions that don't either. Over the years, I've seen that those who can't function in the "worker bee" role get promoted to supervisor. It gets them out of the way of the work that needs to be done. At least that is the way it often works in hospitals.

It's not the "Peter Princple" where people move up until they reach their level of incompetence. In the places I worked it was more the "Negative Selection" principle. "The person on the top of the hierarchy, wishing to remain in power forever, chooses his associates with the prime criterion of incompetence - they must not be competent enough to remove him from power. The associates do the same with those below them in the hierarchy, and the hierarchy is progressively filled with more and more incompetent people."

Ivy, did you ever see that in the hospitals where you worked?

Carol said...

Solar, you say that everything is back to "normal". Have we ever been normal?? Were we even shooting for normal? Maybe more like..we're back to the way we were.

Ivy Green said...

The only "normal" around my place is a setting on the washing machine.

Carol said...

"The only "normal" around my place is a setting on the washing machine."

And aren't you even uncomfortable selecting that Ivy?

Ivy Green said...

I remember the Peter Principle. I didn't realize how old it was. We were still talking about it years later.

The Peter Principle

Solar said...

Carol,

Correct on both counts...we are back to aby-normal...around here..I hope that you are also..was getting a little worried about your alien abduction talk..thought that you were a goner...

In my company there is only one rule..the person that performs their duties as they are taught,and reliability, are the ones that get to be working foremen..it does not matter how long you have been there...no seniority rule..

I have put myself in the same category...if one of my workers, can do something better than me..they run that part of the project..and I will labor for them...

When I have to be somewhere else..or make decisions that they are not allowed to then I go back to being the boss..otherwise..im just one of them...they seem to respect this..a lot more than just someone that is a big screamer, or pusher...when I do it..it..is because there is concrete that has to be placed...they also say that whenever a concrete truck shows up...that I changed like Jeckel and Hyde...

I don't want anyone doing anything..except what; and how they were taught by me...if they do it my way...always..when can't be on the job...I know that they will get it done...

I had at one time 28 worker, and 16 of them were capable of running crews on their own...

When they went for work in another corp, during the past few years...they were hired immediately when they were asked where they worked last...we, our company are known for the training of our workers..one last thing...in my company...there are no dummies...

I teach them everything..about the projects.that I can..even how to read blue prints...before each project..the first day it to gather them and show, understand what is ahead of them...

Lots of laughs that can get the right type of attitude going also..humor is part of everyday goings on...if some newbie asks for help to do something that it normally takes one person to do....( I once said it to a new guy that was trying to stretch the work by not pulling his weight) did you have help on your honeymoon? they clam up and get the work done..if they need help...then it is provided..we all have learned things from doing it all..from the digging,,to roofing..or understand all of the proper procedures..

Ivy Green said...

Flip side was The Impostor Syndrome.

The Impostor Syndrome

Ivy Green said...

Then there was the ever popular Peter Pan Syndrome...

The Peter Pan Syndrome

Ivy Green said...

And my personal favorite, the Cinderella Syndrome...

The Cinderella Syndrome

Carol said...

In your type of work situation Solar, some of these dysfunctional principles of management just wouldn't do.

I also found a principle that defines the one where the person who can't function in the "worker bee" position get promoted to supervisor. It's the Dilbert Principle. I hadn't heard of that one until today. I've seen that one quite frequently in the hospital setting.

Dilbert Principle "... companies tend to systematically promote their least-competent employees to management (generally middle management), in order to limit the amount of damage they're capable of doing."

From Wikipedia.

Ivy Green said...

I thought the Mad Hatter Syndrome was caused by wearing too many hats...

Mad Hatter Syndrome

Carol said...

I think we all suffer from "The Impostor Syndrome" from time to time.

Solar said...

Carol,

One of the things that I love (and teach) about my work..is that it is always measuring you...you can be honest with it..or take a short cut..

sometimes shortcuts are the right thing to do, and will accomplish what they are supposed too..but not often and not as a way to avoid the work that should be done to reach a certain goal..

I teach that we are measured in many, many way's...the honesty of our worked to oneself..in this way...we are measured, and can't lie when we look in the mirror...we know who we are....and if we can pass this mirror test of ourselves...there is no-one that can say differently..we are secure...

This is how I got a few of them to stop abusing drugs...no one can do it for them...not even praying, and admitting it to a bunch of other people that have the same problems...you are on you own...and when you think about how you handle your work ethic..is how it will all come out in the end for you...and im not talking about money..im talking about the person inside of each of you....

they love the philosophy of it..don't know how we started this talk about work....I love to be busy..and one of the reasons that I try to stay in working shape....

later...

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

The Peter Principle was and still is a great book. I see it all of the time in programming, the people that can't program are pushed into management positions.

The problem is, being engineering types they're very detail oriented, which means they want total control and examine everything to the minutest detail. In other words, they micromanage and become real bottlenecks.

They also try to kill any project they don't understand, and not being concept people they don't understand a lot.

A friend of mine calls me Wally, and I hate to say it, but he's probably right.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Solar,
I remember one of the first jobs I went on with my father. He was pouring concrete at a HUD project. They were putting the mud in a wheelbarrow and then wheeling it over and using it to fill block.

The general contractor had put down 1/2" plywood on the floor instead of 3/4", and you guessed it. The wheelbarrow went right through.

They ended up laying another sheet of 1/2" across the entire project. So much for cheating. That incident has always stayed with me.

Or as we say in programming, we never have time to do it right the first time, but we always have time to go back and fix it later.

Carol said...

You are also describing the Dilbert Principle and not the Peter Principle Don. The Peter Principle assumes the guys pushed into management were good at what they did before they became managers. They then rose to their level of incompetence and stayed there.

With the Dilbert Principle, they weren't good at what they were doing so they were made supervisors to get them out of the way.

Carol said...

Did you see, on TM, that Craig and Helen are going to be on an online chat at 5p ET today on Firedoglake Book Salon. How does that work? I went to the link and it doesn't explain it.

Chloe said...

Carol, I think that when you go to that link at 5pm (4pm our time), it will take you to the chat. If it does, I'm pretty sure it will explain what to do.

The only time I've done anything like this at Craig's, he took the questions in advance, so they'd be ready for him. It's hard to say how he will be doing it this time.

Ivy Green said...

People who get pushed from technical specialties to management can have high IQs, but low EQs.

Emotional Intelligence

As organizations become data-driven, they develop cultures that place low value on EQ and intuitive intelligence.

Chloe said...

Solar, I didn't have time to say much this morning, but I enjoyed your post, and also got an even better idea about how you feel on the comment extension you made.

I think Carol is right about you being a good manager. It takes a certain personality, and you have to care about your employee's, in order to create a company that uses team work to get the job done. That's the only way to keep the lines of communication open.

I also got a kick out of how many 'syndromes' you all were able to come up with. The only one I could find is the: Moebius Syndrome .... what a waste of time that turned out to be.

Chloe said...

Ivy, It seems to me that EQ in management, is every bit as important as IQ. At least in the sense of having some idea of how to get others to cooperate toward a common goal.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Therein lies the contradiction of working with tech types. They're some of the most honest people you'll ever work with, because they've never built the social skills to become good at hiding their emotions. But then again, they have no social skills.

I spent 8 years in the military first with exposure to people from many different cultures and countries, which gives me a little bit of a leg up. But I'm still a Wally at heart.

Thanks Carol, that would be a big difference.

Chloe said...

"... being engineering types they're very detail oriented, which means they want total control and examine everything"

I know exactly what you mean. A good manager has to be able to designate authority. They obviously don't have time to do 'everything', and need to find good people they can trust. There's a big difference between 'managing' and in 'doing everything yourself'.

jan said...

Hi folks, I am back. Just got in from the road trip to Arkansas. Had a little snow on the way back -from guess where- Amarillo. If there is any bad weather on I-40 between Albuquerque and Arkansas - you can depend on it being in Amarillo. We are really tired - and so happy to be home. Had some good times with family - and some stress filled times too- doesn't that always happen, but we are glad we made the trip.

I hope all of you had a great Thanksgiving - I look forward to reading all your comments in the next couple of days. It will take me some time. I love the pics you posted above.

I am so happy to be back with friends.

jan said...

Solar, the pic above with the empathetic doc is priceless. what a great cartoon. Never could find a doc quite that empathetic

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Yes Chloe,
I think the hardest lesson a manager has to learn is how to delegate authority, not just responsibility.

jan said...

Solar, I just read your comment with the pic and it is so true.

Carol said...

Oh Jan, I'm so glad you guys are back. I kept looking on our map for an Arkansas star to show up but nada. I almost sent out the highway patrol.

I guess we won't get any details of the stressful times. I remember well those family gatherings. In my family, they never failed to include some major crisis. I miss those miseries.

jan said...

I love all the talk about "syndromes" I have experienced or been around someone who matches that syndrome at one time or another. The first year I was in my doc program, I kept looking around me at others there and thinking, "what am I doing here?"

jan said...

I have never heard of the Cinderella syndrome before. I don't think I have experienced it.

jan said...

One of the people who was my immediate supervisor when I first came to the Univ was the poorest one I think I have ever had. I think you are right Carol, they put her in the position to keep her from doing more damage.

thornwil said...

Jan,

Welcome home. I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. I know what you mean about Amarillo. Seems like everytime we drove up to see my older sister in CO, we would stay the first night there and the weather was always bad.

jan said...

"Coreen, I still think it is interesting that you guys need to use the word "pray". When I have needed a lawyer in the past, I was always praying."

Carol, I am going back to old comments and reading to catch up. I loved your comment about praying when you need a lawyer. I know I can relate to that too.

jan said...

Hi Mary, I hope you had a good TG too. Absolutely true about Amarillo - someone once called it the "butthole" of the U.S. I hate to repeat that b/c someone may be from Amarillo and just love it. My favorite artist is Georgia O'Keefe. I recently read a bio of her and she went to Amarillo (or in the vicinity) when she was in her 20's to teach art in a school. She "LOVED" Amarillo - and ever since I read that about her - I have tried to see Amarillo in a new way.

about 5 years ago, we were coming home to NM from a trip to Ark. (in Dec) We had to stay in Amarillo 3 extra nights as the weather there was really bad and I-40 to Albuq was closed due to weather. We had a nice stay there and learned a lot about Amarillo.

jan said...

Ivy, I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. We are never prepared for a loss of someone young and as you said - so vibrant. I think it is especially difficult to have a loss such as this during a holiday season.

Ivy Green said...

Jan,
Thank you. This man was the quintessential "life of the party." We don't even know what's going to happen for the Christmas party. It's supposed to be at their house. One step at a time.

Ivy Green said...

Jan,
So glad you had a good holiday and a safe trip. That was a long one...how many miles was the round trip?

Ivy Green said...

Here is another "syndrome" for y'all to think about. It's the one that 'splains all the others.

Dr. Kritsberg's Diagnosis

Ivy Green said...

We're sitting down to our post-Thanksgiving Thanksgiving dinner...the one with baked sweet potato and Brussels sprouts that weren't on the menu on the big day itself. Good 'ole Hubs, as down in the dumps as he is over his friend's premature passing, he pulled it together. Not only is he mourning the loss, his own birthday is this week.

Carol said...

Sometimes cooking is good therapy.

Chloe said...

Welcome home Jan! We missed you.
I'm sure you have a lot of rest to catch up on. Do you go to work Monday? If so, that doesn't give you much time. Sure is great to see you back though.

jan said...

I really missed my "blog" family. So happy to get home.

Chloe, love your new little pic of Emma. Wish I had a couple of more days off - but back to the job tomorrow.

jan said...

Ivy, I chuckled when I clicked on your link for Dr. Kritsberg's diagnosis - In the description there is mention of "little Steve" That is what Carol calls my youngest son, Little Stevie.

I feel so badly for your friend's wife and son. How sad.

Carol, Steve says "hello" His 16 year old daughter (she will be 17 in Jan) brought her boyfriend to TG dinner. Steve is having a tough time with his daughter having a boyfriend. This is her first boyfriend. She is a very mature young woman, I think. They got into a disagreement while we were together and she is so much like Steve - just as stubborn.

jan said...

I went back and read some of what I missed while away - but gave up after a while. I may just skip some of it. Too much reading.

jan said...

I have gone back and read some of what you guys have been writing while I was away.

Coreen, the pic you posted of John and Lobie - I was taking the pic. The lady in red is NOT me. I am LOL - because I am not THAT old.

Carol said...

LOL Jan, I was kinda wondering if they thought that was you in the pic. You told them you were taking the pic but I figured some might think that was you.

Carol said...

It was kind of weird yesterday afternoon and evening in that my mouth ran out of gas. Well I guess it was actually my brain. I couldn't think of a thing to say and it seems when I'd show up there was no one to talk to. That didn't help.

Carol said...

We are sure glad to have you back Jan. Did you finish your quilt project yet? Now whose grandbaby are you making it for?

It is really hard to imagine little Stevie with his own kids. I wouldn't worry about that fight he had with his teenage daughter. I'd worry more if they got along. It is not a developmental characteristic of adolescence to get along with your parents. Not normal.

Carol said...

Did you come up with a song to sing when you hit Arkansas Jan? I couldn't come up with any ideas. You should have stopped by the state Travel Bureau when you crossed into Arkansas and asked for suggestions. They are usually helpful. They may have even had a, songs for the road, book there.

Yesterday I decided it was time to go on a diet. That may have accounted for my quiet mood. Hell, I don't need to go on a diet, I just need to stop trying to eat the house down. My eating has gotten out of control. I'm eating more than I did when my thyroid was in full throttle. I think I had something in my mouth at all times yesterday.

I guess I will start by passing up that platter to go of bacon and country fried potatoes I get in the morning on my way to work. The girl behind the food counter usually has it ready for me when I get there and she knows my schedule. She'll just have to give it to someone else. My co-workers have gotten used to my bringing breakfast in the morning. I think they count on it. Oh well.

Carol said...

It's been quiet at the Trail also. Two days and only 116 comments on that last post. That's unusual.

Well it's time to start my routine. After 4 days off I'm sure it will be quite busy at work today. Ya'll have a nice day. It's raining here.

Carol said...

Managed to pass up breakfast.

jan said...

Carol, Don't pass up breakfast. That is not healthy. I did give up bacon, biscuits, gravy, and all the other hi chol foods several years ago. I do eat eggs on occasion but not for b'fast. I usually fix a fruit and lo fat yoghurt smoothie for b'fast. I get frozen fruits at Cosco and always put a bit of banana in the smoothie. The banana is good for potassium and Magnesium and my older body needs that too. I got a great little mixer that I stick down in all this and then it just rinses out real quick. Since I have been making these for me in the am, I feel much better during the day and I am losing a little wt - very slowly.

jan said...

I missed talking to all of you while on this trip, but I am just so technology deficient. I never can work someone else's computer. I am not good at multi-tasking either. It was all I could do while visiting family to get a little exercise in my schedule. I have to do that as I have a fam hx of diabetes. I tried to walk a little every day.

jan said...

I have the baby quilt all put together and am hand-quilting it. It takes longer but do not know how to machine quilt yet. Plan to learn how to do this soon-the quilt shop offers lessons.

The quilt is for my granddaughter's baby due 1/15/10. Boy it is hard to write that "10"

Wow! Nov went so fast. It is going to be 2010 so soon. who is going to write a 2010 new post - its a new decade!

Carol, I now have to start on a baby quilt for my grandson and his wife. Their baby is expected 12/31/09. I may get those machine quilting lessons soon. They are expecting a boy and want the theme to be "camping" I am making up my own pattern with a little cabin and some trees in the middle of the quilt and some birds and fish on the outer part. they want greens and browns and plaids in their quilt.

jan said...

Had a nice walk with Lobie this am. It was so good to see her again. We boarded her. She was so excited when she got home. She did her little dance. We all danced for joy to be home.

jan said...

Off to work.
I look forward to talking with you guys later today.

Chloe said...

Jan, It's good to hear that you and Lobie are dancing with joy. There's no place like home.

Your new great grand baby is due on Emma's one year birthday. 1-15. It'll be interesting to see if he is born on the same day of the month that she was.
Hope your first day back to work is not too hectic (but I feel fairly sure it will be). :)

Chloe said...

Carol, I think part of the cause of people being less talkative is the season. Spring and Summer is more exciting because it's growth season, lots of new life (of all types). I know winter is also an important part of that growth process, but it's less obvious. Winter time is more like 'rest' time. Rest is just not as interesting and exciting to discuss as new life.

Hope your day at work is not too hectic either. Jan's right about breakfast. It's an important meal. Just keep dinner light and enjoy breakfast and lunch.

Chloe said...

Solar, I agree with what you've been saying for the last several months about the economy. I've been trying to keep a positive outlook, but this economy is not getting any better. Not only that, I believe it may be getting even worse. When people do start working again, they'd better be making more money they were before, because everything is so much more expensive. Those raised prices happened so fast too - remember during that huge gas price hike, everything went up in price almost over night. And it didn't go back down when the gas went down either (of course, it never works that way). I think that a lot of people are just trying to survive right now (hopefully with their dignity intact).

I read the post at Craig's this morning about the Afghanistan war, and what he believes to be Obama's new strategy. If he's right, then I am dumbfounded (doesn't happen that easily to me either). Diva put it so well in this paragraph from TM: "I would much rather our government tell us the truth that we're fighting for energy sources instead of these fantasies that we're bringing freedom and democracy to a corruption-riddled, woman-hating, heroin-poppy-growing, land-locked god-forsaken dust bowl country."

Going into that last presidential election, the top concerns people had were the economy, the war, and health care. Someone's is going to have to explain to me what has changed. (and saying he's better than Bush just doesn't cut it)

(... just a temporary stray in focus I'm having, Carol. I'll get back on track.)

Chloe said...

Good post over at TM Solar: Solar's Post

... ok, can't think of any more excuses to not get things done, so guess I will.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

You're going to get me going again if you bring up the middle east Chloe. I served there for two years and was in Turkey right after the Cyprus war and during the Kurdish uprising and the Iranian revolution.

I still say the plan is to keep the left and right bickering while CEOs steal our pockets bare. So far, they're doing a pretty good job.

Just curious, anyone else here with military experience? Solar, I think you said you had served.

Solar said...

Chloe,

It seems that all of this has been planned to me...if there are no jobs..it will be easier to get the soldiers needed for the wars..if there is no where to go..they will risk their lives for the money that is given them by recruiters...

We have been pretty Chatty (as Natasha likes to say) here at the swamp...I don't see it as being slow..TM has been slow for a few months now..they sometimes don't comment for hrs...and there is not night crew..to speak of...

That is what happens when there are no apposing thought allowed..yes you can say them...but when there is no response..there is less people talking...after all how many times can you say the same thing..over, and over again...even Jamie, has done a 360: Now she agrees with most of what I used to fight with her about, and I told her that she was morphing her positions, very carefully..so not talking out of school...

the problem is that when they talk about what the news-media is talking about....it is usually too late...Chloe..yes, we need to talk about all things all of the time...the world doesn't stop in the winter ...

Jan,

.....Nice to see you back.

Solar said...

Don,

Yes I was in the Marine Corps..but don't talk about it..except in general terms...

A big fn Yes to what you said...the two party's are just...good, and bad cops..that let thing get out of hand...they went too far this time..

Every time that I mention a third party...I get slapped down..with the usual crap...but now there are some die hard lefites...that are agreeing with me about the third party...we really only have one..they just take turns..doing the same shit...sorry buck in the jar...

Solar said...

Don,

You spent time in Turkey...has to be one of the best places of Architecture no?

I think that they have been the big winners in all of this...the invasion of Iraq..left the coast clear for them???? and I think that they are one of the few countries that grew in all facets of government and economy?

Solar said...

Don,

If you had been here around Vet, day; you would have received a very special post, and comments from the pinks...they even had a parade...and made me feel great..

I wanted pics of them in there short-short uniforms..but no one gave me one.....bummer, I would have shared the day with you...they tend to go overboard..and it gets embarrassing....I would rather be arguing, than getting attention like that...and thats why im always in trouble; HA!!

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

The architecture in Turkey was amazing. We summered down by a castle built by a general of Alexander the great, walked across a Roman aqueduct, toured caves in which the Apostle Paul started churches. Their history is amazing. Their perspective in being such an old culture is a lot different too. 600 years is just an upstart.

They have done well, part of it because of agreements with the US for the Kuwait invasion and partly because they've buried the hatchet with Greece. Greece has really worked to help them get into world trade markets, a full 180 for them. It's too bad the EU and Sarkozy are so prejudiced against a secular country with a majority muslim populace. They're nothing like the Arab countries and have worked hard to get in. They've even given up the death penalty, leaving the US and Iran as some of the last holdouts.

I don't think the robbing of the middle class was planned as much as everyone is scrambling to get as much as they can before the empire collapses. I saw a survey that said the US was last in a list of 40 countries in creating green technology and jobs. We're quickly being left behind in education, jobs, and health.

You're right in one respect. A friend runs a military induction center and they've had no problem meeting quotas lately.

A salute to you sir.

Solar said...

Chloe,

Just thinking; re: the economy...Obama is going to have a job meeting..he is going to announce that he is going to help some home owners that are in trouble of losing their homes..some help:

This he did already..and half assed..he doesn't care about them on bit...

He will also extend the credit for first time home buyers....There won't be many of them....they don't have a job in order to qualify...

If he doesn't get a lot of money to the small and medium size businesses that will put it to use, instead of his business cronies that have proven that they won't ..its going to get even worse than anyone thought about....but I still remain optimistic....about the way that I have turned my business sights for the future..I will be doing business with State governments..contractors that are going to rely on private work..are going to go under imo...

What im hoping for..is that Obama gets on the Banks, so they can start lending again.....

Chloe said...

Solar, I'm going to read your post right now. I saw it right after I 'thought' I made a post, but I don't know if it disappeared, or if I put it on the wrong thread or something. I'm going to post it again, and then read yours.

Chloe said...

"Heal and educate a child and they will grow up in support of US help. "

Nice post over at TM Don. I brought this one line over, but am linking the post for anyone who wants to read it. Don's Post

I hope I didn't offend you this morning by quoting what Alicia said (I am not a political person Don, and when I repeat what others say, it's just my way of exploring it). I was surprised to hear that you served in the middle east for 2 years (I don't think you ever mentioned it before). I hope you'll talk about it more with us - I don't know that any of us have any first hand knowledge.

What you said about Turkey and their old culture putting a different perspective on things is so true. Whenever I focus in on how young our country is, it's unbelievable what we've accomplished in such a short time.

"I saw a survey that said the US was last in a list of 40 countries in creating green technology and jobs. We're quickly being left behind in education, jobs, and health."

It makes no sense that we're letting this happen. How can it be that we moved forward so quickly for so long, and now we seem to be falling behind.

Chloe said...

"If he doesn't get a lot of money to the small and medium size businesses that will put it to use, instead of his business cronies that have proven that they won't ..its going to get even worse than anyone thought about....but I still remain optimistic"

Solar, I agree with everything you said in that post, including the paragraph that I just quoted. He's putting the money in the wrong places, and I think that was all predetermined 'before' he got into office.

I glad you are optimistic and have turned your business sights toward the changes you see happening. The only thing about doing business with the government though, is that they are slow paying. The only way to do well here, in our business, is to get into bigger commercial work, and that's the direction we're trying to go.

The small business person, which includes the contractors, are not going to do well unless the economy is healthy and doing well. But what you say about working for the government, except for the slow pay, is probably the best security you could have.

Solar said...

Chlo,

They are slow at paying..but once, in the system..it will be ok...the problem is getting the first project of the ground...

For this we need the help from a a bank...that has held up the funds for materials..and for labor....if , and when this is done...we will be able to pick and choose who we want to do biz with...they will come to us...but the first one it the key to it all...

Chloe said...

"the first one it the key to it all"

I know exactly what you mean Solar. And they pay well enough, that after the first job or two, you may not have to worry that much about the banks helping out. From what I understand, government work is big profit.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Hi Chloe,
I'm pretty thick skinned and don't think you could ever offend me Chloe. Did you mean this post, I'm not certain?
http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/11/how-to-save-money-in-afghanist.html#comment-272477

I think the only time I get upset is when I hear bigotry, whether it's blacks, whites, gays, muslims, Catholics, or pink elephants.
I got Solar in trouble that way one time and great person he is he defended me. :)

Feel free to tear apart any idea I have, that's how I learn. I try to stick to the message and if I ever criticize the messenger please call me on it.

I think we're losing our entrepreneurial spirit here in the US. We're afraid so much of the time we're losing our pioneering spirit. We're also falling far behind in education, so there are fewer people to strike out in new directions. I think i read once that the US graduated the same number of IT grads every year over a 10 year period.

Chloe said...

Solar, The 'little guy' having to constantly worry about his livelihood, constantly struggling to just keep his head above water, is not an easy way to live.

I know how you feel about Big Business greed, but I personally blame that on the lack of government restrictions. There need to be the necessary guidelines, to keep our economy working for everyone at every level, not just the rich.

I think it's the nature of everyone to want to make the most money they can possibly make, and I don't think I'd call it greed when they try to do just that. That doesn't mean I think they should be able to gouge us either. That responsibility, to control these humongous corporations, just be set up in the rules and regulations that 'everbody' should have to follow.

We all need to play by the rules, and to do that, it's important that we understand them and agree on them. And that they're not constantly changing, or written in such a way that we can't under them.

I don't believe in 'greed' much. I think the punishment for it is built in, just like all the other laws of nature. A truly greedy person will not succeed, at least for long.

Solar said...

Chloe,

I depends on what kind of govenment work.....Construction projects are just union work projects....

The thing is that once you get the bank to give u a loan..and you get the first project done..now you have a history, and any, and all banks..will be knocking themselves down, in order to give you all the money that you want...then the thing to do is not want any...build up enough to finance your own project..and then the interest savings are enough....there is a lot of work that I have put in on setting things up...now it is in the banks hands.....

Chloe said...

"We're afraid so much of the time we're losing our pioneering spirit. "

Hear, hear!

Don, I wasn't talking about that one, but yes, that one too. I was talking about the one here where I quoted Diva.

I really had no business make that comment over on TM, because of what I said. I'm not a political person, and have no idea what's going on 'politically' most of the time.

Solar said...

"And that they're not constantly changing, or written in such a way that we can't under them."

This is where the truly greedy come into play...they write the laws that they and only they can profit from...

This the greed that I talk about..the huge difference of ability to do what they want..not just here Chlo...but all over the world..they impose what, and how they want to do things...so that they are the only real beneficiaries.....the rest are just crumbs...

I have no problem with the people that make a lot of money, by working for it..or by investing in other way's.

When you have the party system writing the laws, that only they can take advantage of..then it is another thing entirely...

Solar said...

Don,

Also about that pioneering spirit...there needs to be a chance to show it off....

With all of the controlled efforts from the two parties...there is not too much chance for it...

Chloe said...

I have to feed my critters now, but what you said here Solar: "now it is in the banks hands..."

I know how long they can take. It must be frustrating.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Sorry, without a link I have no idea.

I think greed does have an affect. We've lost our sense of sacrifice for the greater good and delayed gratification. It's just get what you can now the easy way.

I think of the change in schools Solar. What used to be called good old fashioned orneriness is now called ADD and medicated. The zero tolerance rules in school smother any real creativity. And of course the GOP has taken a really dumb anti-green stance that just makes no sense whatsoever.

Chloe said...

"This is where the truly greedy come into play...they write the laws that they and only they can profit from."

I hear what you're saying now Solar.

Solar said...

Don,

All true, and the parents are the ones that I always blame..in all things...they have installed the bottom line mentality in the very young even...don't go to a little league baseball game, or a basketball game; etc...

When we have a winner take all attitude..we all loose no?

I know that you don't agree with my stance on religion...but we are in trouble b/c of it...they have taken our society and made it very tribal..our problems stem from this..imo...see you a little later

ps. Like Chloe, I would like to hear about your time is Asia...

Chloe said...

Sorry Don, it was when I quoted Diva from TM.
""I would much rather our government tell us the truth that we're fighting for energy sources instead of these fantasies that we're bringing freedom and democracy to a corruption-riddled, woman-hating, heroin-poppy-growing, land-locked god-forsaken dust bowl country."" http://ct-carolssouthernspice.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-is-real-in-world-of-blogging.html?showComment=1259596845214#c5330744806658824466

I thought that was what you were talking about, when you said not to get you started on the middle east, and was afraid I had offended you.

...I'll check back a little later.

Chloe said...

"I think greed does have an affect. We've lost our sense of sacrifice for the greater good and delayed gratification. It's just get what you can now the easy way."

Now, there's a post right there! I'm sure everyone here will agree with you. Dang, I wish I had a little time right now.

Solar said...

loose=lose

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Solar,
I believe religion is very corrupting. I just believe God is very caring. Look at the new revelation of 40 priests molesting over 400 children in Ireland and both the Vatican and the Irish government covering it up. Especially very strict rules based religions that try to stop followers from thinking on their own. The amount of superstition that has crept into Christianity is amazing. But I think the original words of Jesus are worthy of living up to.

I think Catholics really need to allow marriage and bring women into major leadership positions. That would stop a lot of these problems. I also think Baptists should drink and quit worrying so much about all of their rules.

No Chloe, just that you brought up the topic. I can write prolifically on that topic and can really bore you to death if I get started.

Solar said...

At our thanksgiving table: There were at least 4 different religions...they are all family, and all love each other.....according to the grace that we said...

it was all for each religion...each person said something of a prayer for their own..it became a little competitive...I was asked to say something..and I did...

I said thank you Jesus for dying for my sins...thank you for dying for the sins of all people..whether they belong to an organized religion..or are part of some tribe in the Amazons that have never heard of you...you dyed for them also...and thanks for the family and friends that are here today..and know this to be true......could a hear a pin drop....it was a very nice night, and we were just one family for a while...the next day..I know for sure..that the Catholics....think that if you are not Catholic..you are not worth the bother..and that all of the other religions think the same way...

This is the bases of what is ruining the world to me...if you are not in my world..you don't matter....that goes for business, or war..or anything..if you don't belong to my tribe....you will be taken over by the bible tribe that all was promised too....

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Very nice Solar. You're right, each group wants power and possessions and tries to ostracize anyone not with them.

I like to ask the militant believers if you can accept a gift without knowing who gave it to you?

Solar said...

I better start using spell check..that was horrrrribler than most times..

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Most browsers have them built in. You just need to go into options and turn spell check on. Why do you think I look so good. :^)

Solar said...

I lost my audio a cpl of day's ago..before I go and buy an audio card..is there some audio driver that I should try?

jan said...

Chloe, the grandbaby to be born Jan 15 is going to be a girl - they plan to name her Abigail Louise. I love the older names like this and like Emma. Dec. 31st we are expecting a boy grandbaby. I think they are not sure on a name yet.

jan said...

Hi Solar and Don, I find your comments very interesting. I don't have anything to add but keep on talkin. A salute to both of you. My son did a stint in the Air Force in the early 1980's and his son, my grandson is in the Air Force stationed in Wyoming. Thank you both for your service for all of us and our country.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

I'd have to know what card you have. The only thing I've run into is Media Player not playing some videos and needing special drivers. Drivers can sometimes get corrupted and need to be reloaded, but that's usually unusual.

The first thing is to go into the Control Panel and run a troubleshooter. Start->Control Panel. Double click on Sound and Audio. Under the hardware tab find your card and click it once to highlight it. Then down at the bottom click on troubleshoot and follow instructions.

Solar said...

Jan,

I thought that we were all alone for a while..please jump in...change the subject..and it is nice to have you back.!

jan said...

Solar, I enjoyed your comment about the 4 religions at your dinner table for TG. We have a variety of Christian religions in my family and my sister and her children are Jewish. So I try to observe some of the Jewish holidays also. My mother was raised in the Jewish traditions during her very early years.

Coreen said...

Evening guys,

Jan, glad to see you made it back from Ark. &
you are making progress on your quilts...& I knew you were not in the pic of John & Lobie...

Carol, your guys are just about to start one of their real tests...I know you can't see it 'cause its on espn, so you will probably have one ear to a radio....stay calm & good luck...

Solar & Don, almost like being at a mini-TM
today....

Carol said...

Good evening. Have you guys solved any of these problems yet??

Don't have the energy to worry about any of them because I'm hungry. Actually not, just finished my dinner. A healthy one. I will be hungry in a few minutes though.

I'm waiting on the big game. The Saints are playing the Patriots tonight. It's gonna be a scary one. Heard we have some of our good players out.

I can't watch the game since it is on ESPN. Could go home but nooo, I'll just have to listen to it on the radio, like the olden days. I'll just pretend they haven't invented TV yet, while I play on my laptop. Makes sense.

Coreen, Oprah had Andrea Bocelli and Mary J Blige on today singing "What Child is This". Beautiful, it brought tears to my eyes. Oprah is allowing free download of that song on her website until tomorrow. I downloaded it to my computer but can't figure out how to put it on Iphoney.

I guess it might not be too great a deal for you until you get the sound on your computer fixed. Any of you with sound, who want the song, can go to Oprah.com.

jan said...

Solar, it is so good to be back. I missed all of you. I did not mean to change the subject. I enjoyed reading yours, Dons, and Chloes views of the current political situation. I occasionally get over to TM to see what is going on over there. I just don't have a particular opinion right now - but like to hear what you all think about it.

Solar said...

"Solar & Don, almost like being at a mini-TM
today...."

Is that a good thing..or a bad thing?

Solar said...

Sorry for that question..ignore it. I wasn't thinking and don't want to put you on the spot..

Carol said...

Dang, I submitted my post and there were 10 posts that came up. Where did they all come from? I don't think it took me that long to write mine.

jan said...

Hi Coreen, good to hear from you. I have loved the pics you have posted. I think Conn looks like what I heard Heaven was like when I was a kid.

I am glad you didn't think the lady in red was me. I should not be so vain. ONe of these days I will look something like her - well, probably not - she is pretty thin. I am not fat - but I am not that thin. She is actually a very outgoing and spry lady.

jan said...

Hi Carol, John has the game on so we will watch it for you. I will be rootin for the Saints.

Coreen said...

Not on the spot, as far as I am concerned, TM seems to have become a place for cheering the current administration, the in crowd rules....

jan said...

Carol, we watched Arkansas play LSU while in OK at a motel - on the way back to NM. It was a good game even though LSU beat Arkansas. Arkansas almost beat LSU. You know we are Arkansas fans - or at least John is. He is a big HOG - razorback that is. I am a Texas (UT) fan and they are doing good this season.

jan said...

Coreen, how is the angel afghan coming?

jan said...

Well, I am off to watch a little tv and do some quilting. Back soon.

Coreen said...

Carol, am not a fan of Oprah, but I would have
watched to see/hear Bocelli if I knew...as I said, I am not in to opera, but his Christmas cd is really quite beautiful...

Coreen said...

Jan, almost done, the afghan is complete, but the edging, & finishing is taking a lot of time, I will not make another one like this....

Carol said...

I enjoyed reading your conversation also. It's nice to come home and have something to read on our blog. I always learn a thing or two. I'm glad you guys share your experiences and idea with the rest of us.

Carol said...

Coreen, go to her site and download the song. It's free. Maybe that will encourage you to get your sound fixed.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Jan,
As if you could keep us from talking. Many have tried, all have failed.... :^)

Stop us if we get annoying though. You can imagine Solar and I at an elbow bend, solving all of the world's problems.

Funny, I lost interest in TM because it was becoming all about YouTube and music, not about politics. Maybe there is a good balance.

Solar, I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to hear I think the major religions have misinterpreted the Bible for their own purposes. I'm sure you've heard the old story, about St Peter tiptoeing the new people passed a high fenced in area. When they got past that area and someone asked why they were tiptoeing, St Peter says "Those are the (Southern Baptists, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or insert your favorite here), they think they're the only ones here."

Chloe said...

Carol,
I don't know if you'd even be interested in this, but espn radio has an iphone application that you can download: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/story?id=4485093
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/story?id=4485093

Solar said...

That's a good one Don.

What i used to say..something like this for grace.

Dear God please confirm what I already believe.....It got thru..until people started thinking about it...you would be surprised what I can say..if I include the word God.:))

Chloe said...

"...the grandbaby to be born Jan 15 is going to be a girl - they plan to name her Abigail Louise. I love the older names like this and like Emma. Dec. 31st we are expecting a boy grandbaby. I think they are not sure on a name yet."

Hi Jan, I love the older names too. Abigail is a beautiful name. I imagine she'll possibly have a nick name of Abby down the line (which is very pretty to.) I know Emma's already been called M a few times.

Two more grandchildren withing a couple of weeks of each other. Congratulations Jan!

Chloe said...

"Solar & Don, almost like being at a mini-TM
today...."

Is that a good thing..or a bad thing?"

It's ALL good here at the Swamp, Solar. Carol has always say's: Anything goes at the Swamp.(paraphrasing - sorry if I messed that up Carol)

Solar said...

Chlo,

I know that everything is good here..but I think that we were talking like we used to over at tm when there were different people giving their side of an issue..and not all thought alike...???

Ivy Green said...

I have some catching up to do reading the comments since I was out this evening, but I'm too tired to do it.

But, hey, did you notice the story in the news about a lady who found the image of Jesus on her iron? And here I was not too long ago thinking nobody irons anymore. Obviously, I know nothing about nothing. lol

Carol said...

How bout those Saints? Did anybody see that? Anybody???? We are so good we can hardly stand outselves. Say hello Super Bowl.

It's nice for Louisiana to have something to be proud of. We have great people, food and scenery but we are crawling around on the bottom in just about everything else.

Even one of my football fanatic friends said that the Saints would probably go down last night. I told her that I didn't think so.

Carol said...

And Chloe, don't ask me about any of the rules here. It's Solar who has our rule book. Ask him.

Carol said...

Solar you seem to love "religion" as much as you hate it. It seems that most religions have good at their core it's just people that screw it all up. Ain't that the way it is with everything?

Carol said...

There are two things in multitasking that I can't do at the same time. That's listening and reading. I couldn't read here and listen to the football game. I was having enough problems just listening to the game. I don't know enough about football to even be able to visualize what was going on.

Carol said...

Solar, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at your family gatherings. I'd be so busy laughing that I wouldn't be able to dive bomb the food.

Coreen said...

Carol, no question your Saints are impressive.

It seems that they have been underestimated by
just about 'those in the know' all season, &
despite it, they remain perfect....

Saw some of it, & the cutie was well awesome,
18 for 23 for almost 400 yards and 5 TDs....
you have reason to be proud of your guys...

jan said...

Carol, Congratulations on the Saints winning their game last night.

I can't multitask either. I read an article recently that said that most people cannot multitask well- that something suffers when we do try - ie. driving and texting is now considered more dangerous than drinking and driving.

jan said...

Ivy, I read about the woman seeing Jesus in the iron too. So funny.

jan said...

John has had an interesting experience. He had been telling me about an old high school friend of his who also became an Episcopal priest. Their paths have crossed numerous times in the past 50 or so years. John had not told me about him before (John and I have known each other 19 years) but he has talked about him often in the past 2-3 weeks. Yesterday, John found out that his friend died in October. I truly believe his friend must have visited him in his dreams or possibly his unconscious in the past month or so, because his stories about him and their relationship were so vivid.

jan said...

Well, I just wrote a comment - and it says my comment was published, but I don't see it anywhere. little ghosties playing again.

jan said...

Well, son of a gun, there it is!!!

Solar said...

Carol,

Man; when your wrong; your really; really wrong...I don't like religion one bit, not one iota of an split atom:

As a matter of fact. I dislike religion so much; that if there is a devil....I will give him my soul; right now....for the end of religion..

You haven't been listening, or ignoring...religion is what has been wrong with the world..ever since it was practiced.

The God in the Bible..is an old vindictive, vengeful, war monger er, female abuser, and anything that is repulsive in humans and human nature..he allowed rape, slavery, amongst other atrocities..

He even says that if your Mother, Son, Father, Daughter, even thinks about another God..that you should Kill them..go out and kill those that believe in another god..

There is nothing to like about religion...when the Pilgrims came here..there were two types of religious people that landed..the ones that you like..the nice ones..that came too these lands; asked for help from the Indigenous people; and got along with them.

They never had the intent of what the second group of religious people had..Free Enterprise...Greed, and conquest...

There might (are) some religious people that do, the right things..have Jesus in their hearts..but they don't even know who Jesus was...he was not the Peace-nick that everyone thinks he was...he was just another Messiah in a long line of violent Messiah's.....

There is Anthropological; and historic proof of this....but is not well known...

As for being a fly on the wall; for one of our family party's ..they are just like others....If the whole family gets together, that kinds different...but we are broken up by religion...that I sometimes don't get to see some of them for months. I haven't seen a sister for 3 years..she says that im not Catholic..and will not be around a heathen..she knows that I believe totally in the sciences...same for an older Brother....I hate religion with all of my heart..and soul..whatever that is...

ps; Religion is the one sure thing, that has been used to get one country to go to war against the other...it's easy for them to follow the bible...

My brother; the Decon..hasn't even read the Bible.....I think it is (I told him) b/c he doesn't want to know the truth that is in it...they pick some bs...that was written by Paul, and manipulated thu out time... If you haven't read the Old Testament..see if you can get thu it...it even has 122 books in it ..that says that they don't know who wrote them...but U must believe in them....

Solar said...

In the book that I posted a few threads ago: Cows, pigs, wars, and withces. The riddles of culture:

It shows Jesus thru the real times of what was going on..and the true nature ..the secret of the price of peace...he and his disciples set out to missionize Jerusalem,, the promised capital of the future Holy Jewish Empire...and that how it has been since then....later going to get some exercise in to day...

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Solar,
I'm sure this isn't going to surprise you. I don't think any one religion has ownership of God, but I think they do strive to improve people's lives.

I think I'm on my 4th or 5th time through the Bible now, and I don't know this God of whom you speak. Time after time he reaches out to his people to give up their violent and selfish ways. He forbids illegal weights and measures, usury (credit card rates are now officially called usurial), requires charity to women, children, and ill, and many other very advanced humanitarian themes for that time and area.

In the Old Testament both male and female names are used for God, he's not necessarily a HE but both sexes are made in her image.

The only violent time in the Bible is the exodus from Egypt.

There were some harsh sentences for people who refused to follow the rules. I wonder if these weren't editorials by authors of the time though. I believe the Bible definitely reflects the biases of the authors. But most of these commandments came to be ignored over time.

This seems to be a passing phase of new religions like Christians and the Crusade and now Muslims. I've heard though that Muslims had stopped the practice of Jihad until Americans resurrected it in the Russian/Afghan war.

Yes, religion is misused by people who want to persuade followers to commit criminal acts for their own personal gain. But if people had no sense a God was overseeing their more heinous acts, what would happen? This is the subject of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness and its associated movie, Apocalypse Now.

Solar said...

Don,

You and I would have a lot of elbow bending sessions at the club...of course a little pool, some juke box music...and an attentive bar keep..Greta..Y would have liked her...she used to like these types of conversations...

Any-way...in Deuteronomy chapter 13-7 it say's "If your own full brother or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any nation, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other:

do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him. Your hand shall be t he first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, you God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt,

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

It would be fun Solar. One of theses days I want to get up to Virginia, Illinois to do some family research, we'll have to try and get together.

You have to remember, back then they used to do things like roast their children over fire as a sacrifice to the foreign gods. It wasn't just about burning incense. The prophets used to get pretty upset by that, as you can imagine.

You're supposed to stone an unruly child too.

Most of these severe laws were ignored by the time of Jesus, like today they would just pick and choose the ones they wanted to impose. For instance, in Deuteronomy the law said a man wasn't supposed to lay with a man. But women weren't included until the Apostle Paul. Yet this is the law the evangelicals chose to impose in their latest treatise that Chuck Colson is pushing.

On the other hand, both laying with a man and mixing linen and wool are an abomination, but I don't hear one person getting upset at wearing a wool sweater over a linen shirt. They can't raise money over the sweater issue.

The Jews were supposed to be a royal priesthood to bring God to the rest of the world. They always rebelled and refused to cooperate, many to this day think gentiles are here to serve them instead which clearly wasn't the original intent. Like many things.

Coreen said...

Solar, after reading your thoughts about religion and its place in society, gave it some
thought while out today & though I am not
particularly religious, could be described as
a 'retired catholic', I do know many people who
participate in various religious communities and they find peace and comfort by adhering
to the teachings of their religion.

I do not think that religion itself is inherently bad or evil, rather that throughout
history, men have subverted the tenets of various faiths to further their own goals, but
for a large majority of people, being part of a religious community is a good thing, they do not see it as a destructive force.

I do not feel that there is much room for
debate with regard to religion,
since once one's belief system is formed, for or against it, there is little if any room to alter one's perspective.

Carol said...

I think I worded that wrong Solar. You seem to be passionate about the subject of religion. You have spent much time studying the subject of religion. And you have to care about something a lot even to hate it!

Solar said...

Carol,

Don't worry about it..and yes I have studied it a lot....and it wasn't over night that my views changed..that's hard for an x alter boy to do...but will explain later on when I present it properly....

But suffice it to say for right now...that most people have not taken the time to understand..the most important thing in their lives....their relationship to god..and religion...they just accept what they are fed...and there is where the problem has always been....the history-evolution of the church, is what is offensive....not the few that have the good intentions...that they say that they teach.

Carol said...

Solar, I think I have asked in the past and don't know if you ever anwered but have you read any books by Bart Erhman. He is an American New Testament scholar and textual critic of early Christianity. I've read several of his books and they are very interesting. Learned a little about the origins of Christianity.

He is now an agnostic. He mentioned in one of his books that there are more differences in the copies of the New Testament than there are words in the New Testament.

Some of his books:

Books by Bart Ehrman

Carol said...

Speaking of religion, is anyone going to watch the Prez at the pulpit tonight?

Does anyone think that contributing one more penny or life to the Afgan experience will make a positive difference??? Does he???

jan said...

one of the things I love about this blog is the diversity of thoughts and opinions on various issues. Like Coreen, I too believe that many people find comfort and solace in practicing their faith - whatever that faith may be. I believe that prayer, like meditation, can help one to feel comfort and peace within. I too feel (like Coreen) that many people have used (and continue to use) religion to meet their own needs of greed or control or power over others.

The church my mother attended when I was a young child was oppressive to her and to young children and I would not attend that church or another like it again. I do feel priviliged to live in a country where I can choose to practice a religion (or not practice) that fits my beliefs and life philosophy.

jan said...

Carol, I believe we should get out of Afghanistan as quickly as we can safely get our troops out.

Solar said...

"And you have to care about something a lot even to hate it!"

The only reason that I have been so involved with it is ...for understanding why so many, (it started out this way) of my family were able to abandon the ones that they love...for a religion...it completely went against any logical thing that I could think of...to leave your family for the promise of living for ever with a god...that might not be the right god....and why they were so sure that they were the only ones that were chosen...not any others..this is one of the reasons that Hitler had for the things that he did...his morals..were just for his own...and not for others....the history of the church..is just as bad...if one takes the time to find it out...

When I found out about the Popes, and their private crusades..and the way that they used god to reward themselves the people riches..how they killed entire villages, that were not followers of them...

They still teach that if you are not one of them...it doesn't matter if you suffer or not..if you are not one of them...don't have anything to do with them unless it's for converting them, into being one of us...

Yes there are some very good people (few) that have the spirit of what religion is suppose to be....but so does non religious people...

Would it surprise you if there were logical proofs that Jesus was a Military Messiah up until a certain point...that he was not peaceful as they made him out to be.....they cleaned him up,,,he was very political in a climate that at the time..he was considers a threat to governments just like any insurgent..

When I put history, and what is happening now..to the people that I consider brothers, and sister....it makes me sad..not hateful....I don't want to convert anyone...I don't have anything to concert them too.....just want to have the many different information that is available...

I believe that we can heal this earth with the truth...and the truth about living for ever, can not be bought with money, or giving our souls to god...if there is a god...he would want all of earths people as one...not as a bunch of tribes....which is what we are....when religions break us up to be....sorry for the rant.....I am passionate about this..but only because if affected my family so badly..and thru all of the studies that I have done...for many, many years, I see the harm that it does..to the world...

Solar said...

Carol,


"He is now an agnostic. He mentioned in one of his books that there are more differences in the copies of the New Testament than there are words in the New Testament".

Thanks I will take a look at it...and not surprised...I could make a few post's just on the 5 books that Moses DIDN'T write...if the old testament is not to be believed...I can not imagine why the knew one would be....revised history is just that revised..

Carol said...

Wooo, it's cold here. Well, it's only in the 40s but it's damp and rainy, ya know that kind of weather that drives that cold right into your bones. It was only 53 in the kitchen when I got home. I had to blow warm air into my warm ups with my blow dryer just to be able to put them on.

I know Solar, visquin. But that wouldn't help much when I don't have a source of heat I'm comfortble leaving on in that part of the camp when I'm gone. I can warm it up some when I get home and when I get my warm clothes on I'm fine.

And to paraphrase Peppermint Patty's response to Charlie Brown when he was giving her some advice regarding something she was whining about...sometimes when we whine, we don't want a solution, we just want sympathy.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Arggh, this time it told me there was no blog id when i posted.

Carol, you should know that you should ask "Does anybody besides Don think we should stay in Afghanistan". I just don't think we should get out in 3 years, I think we need at least a 30 year plan, so one full generation grows up with the possibility of peace.

Since we were largely responsible for blowing the place to pieces I don't think we can just walk away. Afghanistan isn't a disposable toy that we can throw away when we get tired of it.

Rather than try to take the entire country, I'd set up a perimeter around Kabul. Lock it down tight. Build schools, clinics, hospitals, court houses and set up an entire bureaucracy.

Once that's going well, move out the perimeter and do it again.

I'd also offer to buy all of the opium at prices higher than the drug dealers offer. But I'd offer to buy food crops at an even higher price. Once the farmers are settled into just raising food crops the US can quit buying crops and subsidize the farmers like here in the US.

The idea of going in with a small force and controlling the whole country is just nuts. We can keep a large sustainable force there if we can stop the casualties. Man it by pulling troops out of Europe. We need a larger footprint in the Middle East anyway.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Solar,
There's a lot of mythology surrounding the Bible. Ever listen to the Moyer interviews with Joseph Campbell?

I've actually been to protestant churches with support groups for recovering Catholics. Any time there's a group with strict rules there's a lot of bitterness when people finally break away.

There was an ex-pastor I met on twitter that had been a pentecostal preacher for 30 years and had been absolutely sure he had all of the answers. Now he's gone a full 180 and preaches against the existence of Jesus, and is sure he has all of the answers. He's kind of funny but has lots of anger.

Carol said...

For one, I don't think we can force peace on people. There are people in neighborhoods in our own country who don't know real peace. And is that objective for a small group of people worth the tremendous investment it would take to, maybe, achieve it?

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

I don't think we'd be forcing peace, most people want to raise their families in peace and can't. I'll guarantee that the worst neighborhoods in America live better than 98% of Afghanistan. I've been in many of them. I used to live in Inglewood.

I actually think there's a much better chance at building peace in Afghanistan than Iraq. The only reason Iraq has calmed down as much as it has is that people have either left the country or moved into homogeneous neighborhoods.

I think it's worth it, both for the Afghanis and our own soul. We can't keep bungling things overseas and then walk away. If our children did that we'd go ballistic, but we do it time after time as adults. That's what allowed Al Queda to train in Afghanistan in the first place.

Carol said...

Chloe, did you see that our low on Friday night, both yours and mine, is listed as 28 degrees? The weather for this area even lists the possibility of snow??? Yours doesn't mention that.

Carol said...

Chloe, maybe that temp was a mistake. It was reported on Accuweather. Our news didn't list 28 at the low on Friday. Who knows?

Chloe said...

Carol, I just got here and the last post which is yours is the only one I've read. I'm posting what my yahoo page says it will be here:
Lows for tonight, tomorrow, Thurs., Fri. and Sat.
Low: 43°

High: 52°
Low: 38°
High: 55°
Low: 38°
High: 44°
Low: 26°
High: 52°
Low: 38°
... Fridays says rain and snow!!

Chloe said...

... Carol, We're north of Houston, so it's normally a few degrees colder here than there.

Is your heat working well?

Chloe said...

"But that wouldn't help much when I don't have a source of heat I'm comfortble leaving on in that part of the camp when I'm gone."

Did you ever check out that little Sunbeam heater I told you about at WM? It's has a regular dial thermostat on it, and is 'very' safe and accurate, for $30. It would do well for you in one room, like the bedroom, or if you needed a quick warm up in the bathroom. They heat of rooms very quickly, and you could leave it on 65 when you are gone.

I hope you're not to strict on your diet. You need extra food when it's cold.

Chloe said...

You are probably right. Sometimes it's accurate, and sometimes it changes as it get's closer to the day it's reporting. We have had ice rain here before, and years ago, it got down to 17 around Christmas. Unusual, but it does happen.

The northerner's send their cold weather down to us every winter, and we have no mountains or anything to block it.

Chloe said...

Carol, '96 was the last time it was that cold, I think.

6p01127900efbf28a4 said...

Oil filled heaters radiate heat gently and have no exposed elements. They also have a switch so they turn off if ever tipped over, even though nothing would really happen.

They're wonderful. I'll use them in a bedroom and turn down the heat in the rest of the house.

Chloe said...

"And you have to care about something a lot even to hate it!"

Ha! Truer words never spoken.

Chloe said...

That's good to know Don. I've never had an oil filled heater.

Chloe said...

We've only got about 30 comments to go, before we reach 200.

Hopefully, someone has a post brewing in their brain about now.

Solar said...

Chloe,

Get those pics that Carol wants with the jammies on.!

Chloe said...

"...hey, did you notice the story in the news about a lady who found the image of Jesus on her iron? And here I was not too long ago thinking nobody irons anymore. Obviously, I know nothing about nothing. lol"

It 'is' funny that there was all that conversation about ironing the other day Ivy, and this came up. More synchronicity?

Chloe said...

"Get those pics that Carol wants with the jammies on.!"

Carol wants your jammie pic Solar.
She did say you have the rule book though. So I guess whatever you say, goes.

Solar said...

Im not trying to get serious about Jesus again...but very few people Know how he really looked....he looked more like The Actor Ben Kingsley than the images that they say appear to them....we even had some homeless guy urinate in a viaduct once..and left an outline of Jesus....lots of new about it...

Solar said...

Chloe,

No, no, not what ever I say goes...that would be voluntarily ..not in the rule book that says we must get Sears Catalog peeks..but it is a request from the owner of this blog...and we should honor them no? and don't ask the boss she will just say the apposite...

Ivy Green said...

Solar,
I thought it was a pretty good likeness myself. But then, I know nothing...

Chloe said...

Carol, is this what you've been reading. Oddly enough, they're talking about the warm front coming from the south, and working it's way north, being the main cause of possible problems. I noticed La., Alabama, Florida and North Carolina all mentioned in the article. States where we have Swampers.

"A storm system will move northward out of Gulf of Mexico and toward the Appalachians.

The threat of severe thunderstorms will increase along along the Gulf Coast as a warm front moves northward. Damaging winds and possible tornadoes may impact southeastern Louisiana, southern Mississippi, southern Alabama and the extreme western Florida Panhandle.

Wednesday, the severe threat will extend from southeast Mississippi to central and southern portions of Alabama and Georgia, Florida and South Carolina. Overnight Wednesday, isolated severe storms may spread farther to the east over eastern North Carolina and southeast Virginia." http://www.weather.com/newscenter/stormwatch/?from=hp_news

Ivy Green said...

Before we leave this thread, let me say the cartoon is taking on a deeper meaning as I contemplate a colonoscopy before the week is over. I hope my doctor will be "empathetic."

Carol said...

I hope Jesus doesn't show up on my iron unless he likes it hot. Can't give up my ironing.

I have two of those radiator type heaters but they only increase the temp in a room, from what it is outside, about 14 to 16 degrees. I'll let you know how well it does if it gets down in the 20s. I'm glad it will the coldest on Friday night. I can stay under the covers with my heating blanket later on Saturday.

I'm just glad we don't have lots of really cold weather down here. They did warn us that due to that El Nino, we'd have a colder, wetter winter this year.

I usually didn't stay here much in the winter except on some weekends when it wasn't cold. We'll see if I can last.

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
You might be interested to know it appears the sudden passing of our friend may have involved complications of diabetes. It is no trifling disease.

Chloe said...

Sears Catalogue peek

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
Does wine count as a clear liquid?

Ivy Green said...

That was a joke...

Chloe said...

oops, there was an error. I'll go back to find the url.

Carol said...

When is your colonoscopy Ivy? The worst part is that gallon of golitely you have to drink before the test. You don't necessarily go lightly. I needed a diaper when I had to drink it.

Chloe said...

Sears Catalogue peek

Ivy Green said...

Carol,
It's on Thursday. I have that gallon of yuk chilling in the fridge. I just mixed it up.

Carol said...

Ivy, the doc I had back when I had my colonoscopy many moons ago, said I could drink alcohol if I wanted to, but I don't drink. I only got half way thru that golitely before I was clean as a whistle. Good thing because I couldn't have ingested one more glass of that stuff. Drink white wine if you can fit it in with all that golitely.

Carol said...

I'm am feeling for you Ivy.

Your friend had diabetes? Did he take care of himself? Keep his blood sugar under control. Diabetics do have a higher risk of heart disease, even with good control.

Chloe said...

Oddly enough, I found a pair of pajamas I'd like to order on that page I linked. Hmmmm.

Ivy, Do you start drinking the yuk tommorow afternoon? Who know, the wine may settle your stomach a little. Didn't you get nauseated Carol?

Chloe said...

.. oh boy, one m and two r's.

Carol said...

I was scheduled for a colonoscopy last year but after my fall I felt like I had had enough trauma for one year.

Carol said...

Does anyone have a link to the iron Jesus?

Solar said...

I think that Coreen is right about us Lucy...I just knew that you would post that sears link...not with dogs in jamies..but I sorta knew....

Solar said...

Oh I forgot..Funny.!!

Carol said...

And do you think Jesus had to do his own ironing? I bet Mary M. had to do it.

Carol said...

That golitely did make me nauseated. One more glass of it and I would have been blowing from both ends.

Chloe said...

Really Solar? The dogs Jammie's just happen to come up by coincidence. I really did actually find some on that page that I liked. Ha! Shopping by accident.

Carol said...

How come our avatars are showing up again?

Solar said...

I hate all of that C talk..but it just got all of the avatars back. hahah

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