Saturday, February 13, 2010

Have we spoiled ourselves into dangerous territory?

Are we becoming a society of people who have to have what we want, when we want it or else? Where I work, in a correctional facility, I see many examples of that kind of attitude and I keep pondering why I'm seeing people who look like the students I used to teach in college years back. They come from nice homes, nice families and they were given the best of everything by their parents. Now their sitting in the slammer because they wanted something they couldn't afford to buy and didn't want to wait or work for it. They are wanting me to make their experience behind bars as pleasant as it can be. They want a bottom bunk, a special diet, an extra mat and something to help them sleep through the misery of that experience. I've been quilty of telling them, "you're in jail, this is not the Marriot."

Kids often want everything. I don't have any children so it's easy for me to complain but I've seen how parents, who are struggling to make ends meet themselves, go into debt to buy little Johnny and little Sally everything they want, those $150 fancy tennis shoes, designer jeans, the latest and most expensive cell phone, and a nice computer. They just put it on the credit card, that's maxed out at a high interest rate.

These young people then leave home and they want to have a nice house. Not just any house, a state of the art house, one a hundred times better than I ever had or even now have, after 40 plus years of employment. I have often pondered, how can they afford that kind of house and all the stuff that they have in it. They can't. I've been more than a little resentful to have to spend my hard earned tax dollars to bail out people who bit off more than they could chew because they wanted what they wanted, when they wanted it or else.

Now we hear of people going ballastic and shooting up other people because they were disappointed. Is this another side effect of the, we want what we want, when we want it or else, society that we have created?

120 comments:

Chloe said...

Good post and good questions Carol!
Sounds a little like what Don said about what's happening to our society (when he was posting here).

I mean, most of these things are happening in the generation that's younger than ours. I'm wondering if it has to do with them confusing reality with fantasy. I mean look at the movies, video games, even computers - what a different (more detached?) world they're growing up in. Like I mentioned here once, the world is so much bigger than it used to be. Not enough boundaries.

Carol said...

Jan, you inspired me to come up with this ponder when you said that that lady who shot and killed those three people must have had mental problems. I'm not sure if it is "crazy" or the result of an extremely spoiled society. Yes, there has to be a degree of crazy but I've seen teenagers, who definitely weren't crazy, slam their fists through a wall when mommy or daddy said "no". Many can't handle not getting what they want, when they want it or any disappointment. All it takes is that moment of disappointment followed by fury and having a weapon available.

And how can we complain about how parents are raising their kids when our President and our government leaders just did the same thing for those rich spoiled Wallstreet guys and Bankers. Those guys played bad with our money, lost it and we gave it back to them out of our hard earned money and then gave them a bonus. I can't believe that, we the people, have tolerated this without having some riots in the streets. Little Johnny is in jail but rich, fat cat Johnny is smoking stoggies on his yacht.

Carol said...

And in response to your Olympics comment:

And I love the Olympics also. Some of the sports are so amazing but so dangerous. I'm just in awe of them. They combine art, science and a ton of daredevil to accomplish. We watch them for their Wow factor and beauty and some watch them, waiting for the agony of defeat. Yes, I heard that on one of the news shows yesterday. I think it was one of the guys on Morning Joe. He may feel a bit bad about that statement after yesterday's accident. I'm sure he didn't want that agony to end in death.

Carol said...

It puts parents in a real bind Chloe. If you try to raise your kids being reasonable, not overdoing it, you look like a real heel.

Chloe said...

I agree Carol. And who wants to look like a heel? It causes resentment in the child too, if he/she feels different.

Plus TV, Computers, Movies, Video Games, Cell Phones, and so on, are raising peoples kids for them. It's not only the easy way out, it's hard to avoid.

Chloe said...

Carol, I agreed with you about Bill Clinton and how all that stress couldn't have been easy on him. Even before Hillary ran (and we all remember how stressed out he was then) he's always had much more stress than most of us, plus I've heard how little sleep he gets too.

The only reason I linked that article, is because it said there is 'no cure for heart disease'. Actually, I was hoping to get your opinion on that statement. I mean, it talked about the idea that these people get heart bypass surgery, and thinking they're homefree, but that article said this is just not true.

Ok, lets face it, at our age, all illnesses are progressive. It's always something.

Chloe said...

Carol, I don't think people kill other people because they're spoiled. I think it is more likely more mental illness and lack of strong values.

To me being too spoiled probably means being too loved, and I just can't imagine someone brought up feeling loved causing them to kill someone else.

It's important to set limits, for children to learn to experience some disappointment (it's inevitable) and a parents job is to help them to learn to cope with those things, to teach them ways to deal with disappointment (and all the rest).

I think it's more likely that we've been desensitized to violence. Just look at the movies, and music, video games, 'WARS', all around us.

Carol said...

I had a friend years back who was about 24, still living at home with her parents. She just graduated college and had a good job as a nurse working in the hospital. We were going out for the evening and I went to pick her up. She asked her mom, who was a low paid government employee, for money to go out. I couldn't believe it. She made twice what her mom made but still thought her mom should finance her going out to party???? I did give her a hard time but she didn't see a thing wrong with what she did.

Carol said...

And regarding those grossly expensive heart procedures, people often don't realize the limitations to all that fancy technology or even the risk involved with the procedure. They think they have been given a new lease on life and it just ain't so. Yes it stops the pain and allows for better activity tolerance but is just doesn't cure the problem. I don't think people undergoing those procedures really understand that and it certainly isn't stressed at the time they are having them done.

Carol said...

Chloe, I agree with the fact that all those video games have an unhealthy influence on young people. They can shoot and blow up people on those games and just hit reset or start over and everyone is back to normal.

I had this young college student living with me for a couple of years. He spent all his spare time watching movies and playing video games. He would talk about both like it was real life. It was weird. I wasn't sure if he knew the difference.

There was this Doc who I heard about who, on his breaks at the hospital at night, went out and was shooting out street light with a gun. I knew him and he seemed very normal to me. He was a big fan of those video games. No one thought he was crazy.

Carol said...

And as far as Maggie goes, I could afford to buy her all those expensive dog toys but I don't. First of all, most of those dog toys were made in China with toxic materials and too many toys make her anxious. She gets a few toys and an old sock in a sock. Of course she doesn't have to go play with other dogs who do get all those expensive doggy toys and make fun of her because she doesn't have them.

Chloe said...

"She asked her mom, who was a low paid government employee, for money to go out."

Her mom should have said NO. She was wrong to ask, but her mom was wrong to give it to her.

Co-Dependents.

Chloe said...

"I don't think people undergoing those procedures really understand that and it certainly isn't stressed at the time they are having them done."

I agree. What needs to be stressed, are the factors that got them there in the first place too.

Coreen said...

So many thoughts this morning..

Not sure you can select any one reason/explanation why people act as they do in a particular circumstance.

As far as the I want it now attitude, we are surrounded by/bombarded by advertising that tells us we can have it all and now.

Until the meltdown last year, consumer spending
was more than 2/3 of the american economy...that was what was keeping the 'good times' going...& that is what was intended....

As each generation has accomplished more they
have instictively wanted to provide more, better opportunities, making it easier for their children, & in doing so, may have 'spoiled' them by indulging or overindulging their desires.

That has been the american way (& now it is happening in such places as China/India as
the generations learn more, make $$$, they want
things that identify them as being successful, a car, personal items, homes....)

If we each look to our own personal environment, I would suggest that in some ways
we all have indulged/spoiled ourselves, others,
at some time...not sure that is a bad thing necessarily.

Will the mindset that has created the society
that wants things as a symbol of success, comfort, whatever you may call it, change in the forseeable future....I think not, that is
simply not human nature...

Carol said...

And heredity is one risk factor you can't change. Some people live to be a ripe old age eating bacon and eggs and smoking cigerettes.


The second risk factor, hard to control, is that stress one.

Chloe said...

"Of course she doesn't have to go play with other dogs who do get all those expensive doggy toys and make fun of her because she doesn't have them."

LOL Carol!
Maggie has all the important things. And you keep her safe. She knows she's loved. I was going to say you set limits, but I had second thought on that. :)

Chloe said...

Yep, don't ever underestimate heredity.

Chloe said...

Wow Coreen. You said a lot there, and I agree with it all. It's so complicated.

I can't help but think though, that our perception and awareness of what's going on in the world has changed so much because we get information so quickly. I don't think we were always so quick to find out about the bad things that were happening.

Chloe said...

"He would talk about both like it was real life. It was weird. I wasn't sure if he knew the difference. "

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there!

People are getting to the point they can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality! I've witnessed it more and more.

Chloe said...

... don't know if this is related, but I've always like that saying: ... life imitates art, and art imitates life (regarding the movies).

Carol said...

The only thing I can see that would push the reset button on society is if we went into a serious depression where just getting enough to eat was our priority. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Carol said...

"Another university official, who asked not to be named, told Reuters the female suspect arrested was Dr. Amy Bishop, a Harvard University-trained biology professor."

"CNN's Alabama affiliate said the suspect had been told before the shooting that she was being denied tenure."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100213/ts_nm/us_usa_crime_shooting

Carol said...

I'm interested in finding out more of her history. I wonder if she was on any meds?

Carol said...

And I didn't mean to insinuate that this woman who went ballastic was spoiled by her parents but I am finding that to be a more common problem where I work. It just started me pondering.

And we don't tolerate disappointment very well anymore. We can't tolerate being sad when it's normal to be sad at times. What are the factors that contribute to that. My inmates all want something the make them, not sad anymore. I tell them that if they weren't sad over what they are now experiencing, it wouldn't be normal. I can't take away the pain of grief. That is one of the problems. Medicine does want to take away the normal pain of grief. Some of it is necessary for our growth and development.

Carol said...

And when is it just grief and when is it depression? I consider it depression when someone is sad and there is nothing really evident to cause serious sadness. Do both problems need to be medicated? Maybe if the sadness is serious enough or prolonged enough to interfere with a person's activities of daily living, medication is indicated. I have to deal with this decision every day. I also have the advantage of not having to prescribe something just to make my patients happy or so they won't find another Doc who will.

Coreen said...

Carol,

Maybe she was just angry/unhappy with her own
inabilities & when she learned she was not going to be given tenure something I beleive
is coveted by professors...security for the future....she could not deal with the reality
and acted/reacted in an extremely destructive way....she obviously had access to the weapon of choice of most that decide to exact revenge
on those they perceive to have aggreived them...all to easy to stand there & shoot at
others....

As far as the use of prescriptions to temper/
modify/control human behavior....that is something the medical profession along with their benefactors....pharma...need to look at...

This week there was an article about redoing
psychological disorder designations....I read
it & again being one with very little respect for the medical profession as a whole (not
any particular individual) I thought was an
absolute joke (sarcastic).....

I am about to leave, but if you can't find the
article I will try to go back when I return....

Carol said...

And, if after hearing some of my patient's stories about their lives, I'm crying, I figure it is time for one of to be on some drugs. LOL.

Carol said...

Please find that article Coreen.

Carol said...

It is very hard to hold out on prescribing those drugs even though I don't have to make my client's happy. They first come in saying they can't sleep. I tell them that we don't prescribe sleeping medications in jail and discuss some sleep stratigies. Then they learn from other inmates and come in saying they are depressed. I may still hold out if I am aware of the game they're playing. Then they call their mommy and mommy calls. Can still hold out there. Then mommy calls and threatens the Warden and the Warden calls me.........Can you see my dilemma?

Carol said...

Coreen.

Medicine is often practiced to satisfy the client, the customer. It is a business! If someone goes to their medical practitioner and wants anything, an antibiotic that is not needed, pain medication that may not be needed or anything else that may not be needed, and doesn't get it...they find a new medical practitioner. I see the young idealistic docs come out trying to practice how they were trained but it doesn't take long to become manipulated by the need to have a lucrative practice and very satisfied customers.

Carol said...

And also if the medical practitioner fails to order that antibiotic that may not be needed at the time and heaven forbid the client later develops some secondary serious infection that causes injury or death, there's a lawsuit. And because it is often cheaper to settle than to fight it, the client wins. So the practitioner orders some useless antiobiotic, or one that soon becomes useless from overuse, so they can at least say I gave them something.

Carol said...

Medicine has become just like the drive thru fast food joints. The customer comes in and asks for what they want, saw it on TV, and the practitioner grabs their prescription pad and writes it. It's quick and easy and you have very satisfied customers. It might not be too long before they have drive thru windows. It's already available online.

Carol said...

I'll shut up after this and go do my chores.

Some medical specialties started out being such a good idea and then it quickly turned bad. When the "pain management" specialty first came into being, I thought, that is really a good idea because so many in health care lost their ability to be empathetic to serious, chronic pain. You just get immume after a while.

It didn't take long for Docs to ruin that specialty. In Texas they have chains of pain management clinics that dole out hydrocodone, soma and xanax, a toxic cocktail. It has caused many overdoses and deaths and unfortuantely filled up our jails.

Many of my inmates are in jail due to that cocktail and they all know many of their friends and family members who lost thier lives due to that cocktail. Some need alternatives to meds and some may need only one med but that cocktail is seldom ever really necessary. I asked one of my inmates the other day, who was in jail due to that cocktail, just how many people she knew who had died from that cocktail. She listed many. I asked her if that scared her and why did she continue to want to take those meds knowing they killed people. She said she needed those meds to lessen the pain caused by knowing so many people who died from that cocktail. We both had to laugh there.

jan said...

Wow! a serious topic. One of the things I have noted in recent years in teaching nursing is the change in the students' expectations about teachers and about their education. Students now expect to be entertained in class and to not have to do any homework. The other thing is how we as faculty and administrators have changed in our responses to students. Our main goal now is to make students happy. Guess what, Our grades are terribly inflated and our NCLEX (Board grades) have fallen below the national average. We have students who are on the Dean's List for grades and they fail their nursing Board exams. Our nursing program is supposed to be the premier program in the state. What is wrong with this picture. One of the reasons I want to retire now is there is less of a focus on educating the nursing student to be a safe and effective nurse in her/his practice and more of a focus on making the student happy.

Carol said...

Oh Jan, that was one of the reasons I was so happy to get out of teaching. When I stood my ground to get rid of a unsafe, incompetent, nursing student, it took many extra hours of time, going thru multiple committees to fight the student and even a lawyer once. It took years off my life. I saw so many other faculty members, who would treat the students like crap but even if they were incompetent, they didn't dare fail them. I treated mine with respect but if I couldn't drag them across the finish line, I believe me I tried, I failed them. Then had hell to pay.

Carol said...

That's another great example of wanting what we want, when we want it or else. Did they give you a bullet proof vest Jan?

jan said...

Carol, I hear what you are talking about related to pain meds and antibiotics. I really like my doc. He is an ethical practitioner but when I need an antibiotic he refuses. Last sept thru dec. I kept getting cold after cold on top of having bronchitis. I knew I needed an antiobiotic and then when it finally turned into pneumonia I had to go to an urgent care clinic. After the antibiotics I have been fine. This usually happens to me once/year and it doesn't clear up w/o antibiotics. I take care of myself and do everything to stay healthy. I have osteoartritis in my spine but use exercise & stretching to deal with the pain. I take no meds. But sometimes one needs a medication. When we went to Mexico, I bought 2 Z packs at a Mexican pharmacty. In Mexico, you can buy them over the counter. I don't like to treat myself but when I get bronchitis again and it keeps me from getting the exercise I need and doing the activities I enjoy, you better believe I am taking them.

Carol said...

And Jan, I know I'm gonna step on some toes with my post because we are all quilty to some extent of practicing medicine. I go to my Doc and tell her what's wrong with me and what I need. I also tell her I want something old and cheap to take when she offers something new and expensive. But I do have some credentials to do that. I also let her validate my diagnosis with any lab or xrays she wants to order. And I love her.

jan said...

Carol, I hear you about failing students. It makes so much work for faculty to fail a student, that most just pass them on to avoid the time and stress to do all the paperwork and meetings. I failed a student in Texas because he left the hospital without telling me or the nurse he was working with - essentially abandoning his patient. He had been on academic probation before this. It was a horrible experience. He claimed I was too "serious" a teacher and had "no sense of humor." I was supported by admin. About a month after he was kicked out of the program, I found a bullet hole through a front window in my house.

Carol said...

If you look up bronchitis in emedicine or any other reference, it says that empiric antibiotic therapy is not warranted because it is most likely caused by a viral infection. That's a fact. It's not the same with smokers who often have a bacterial complications with bronchitis.

Also it might not be bronchitis but sinusitis causing your bronchitis symptoms. That can be bacterial. That causes the coughing and wheezing is often mistaken for bronchitis. It does respond to an antibiotic. You also can't count out that placebo effect. If you get what you think you need, you will heal faster. That's a fact also.

I read an article about the olympic skier who is using cheese to wrap her injuried leg. No way to prove any efficacy of that therapy even though they have tried to come up with some theories. But she truely thinks it works so it does.

If placing a knife under the bed cuts the pain of childbirth, as some people have thought, let it be. It won't hurt unless there are kids are playing under the bed.

Carol said...

Even when the administration supports you Jan, you might end up in front of the grievance committee and/or the University grade appeals committee. I had to do both and one of the students has his lawyer with him. I won in both committees, with a unamimous decision from the faculty and other students, but it took it's toll on me.

jan said...

Carol, I hear what you are saying. I have also read the same thing over and over again. However, I had pneumonia 2-3 times as a child too. It would start with bronchitis. I am sure you are correct about one thing. It begins with a viral infection but then progresses to a secondary bacterial infection. The same thing happens to Terry. I think probably the underlying problem is allergies and sinus drainage. We both take antihistamines daily. I don't smoke and neither does he, so that is not it. I pay close attention to my body and I can do biofeedback and work myself out of almost any pain instead of using meds.

jan said...

Carol, I completely agree that if we think something works, it usually does. My Cherokee grandmother would put tobacco (she used chewing tobacco) on the spot where we would get insect or spider bites. It worked - took away the sting and prevented any redness. I still use that. Most people think that is nuts. Nicotine constricts blood vessels. I read somewhere that in some undeveloped countries they use tobacco leaves on a bleeding wound to stop the bleeding.

jan said...

Carol, have you noticed that we are the only ones commenting. Have we scared everyone away or bored them out of their minds??

jan said...

oops, I am the only one here - I guess its me.

Carol said...

No Jan, I'm here but for some reason you can't see me.

Carol said...

Well Jan, with Clinton and his procedure, the Alabama shooter, and the olympic skier with her cheese cast, these are timely topics.

Carol said...

And some of this I'm discussing today is the reason I had to take an extra day off of work. To get away from it. Didn't help since I've been on the phone with work most of yesterday and today. Not much of a vacation or holiday. Last night, even late into the evening, I was dealing with a crisis that made me have to take an extra Bp pill.

jan said...

Carol, I hope all others will forgive me but it has felt like old times to get into these rather heated discussions with you. We don't solve anything, but its been fun.

jan said...

Carol, maybe you should turn off your phone when you are off. You need some R&R on your days off.

Carol said...

I can talk to you guys and most of the time you understand. I know you understand what I am dealing with when it comes to health care Jan. Remember, on this site, anything goes. It's in the rule book isn't it Solar? Just page down when it is something you don't want to read.

Carol said...

Ican't turn off my phone Jan. Inmates keep coming in with complex medical problems and suitcases of meds. I have only LPNs at work. They are very smart LPNs but they can't make decisions on what to continue to give or order or what to do. They can't send every inmate who needs something out to the ER.

Carol said...

I wish I could share more of what I have to deal with at work and get some of advice. I know many of you could give some good advice because you have experience in management and such. Those are some of my most distressing issues. Because this is a public site and anyone can read it, that might not be a good idea.

Coreen said...

Carol, This is the opinion piece discussing autism & dsm-v revisions...


Disorder out of Chaos

jan said...

I have been thinking about the earlier posts and how younger people seem to expect to have it all with little effort or work. Of course, this is not all young people. Many of the ones I know and teach are working very hard. I had a student in my class a couple of years ago. She is one of 14 kids and rode the railrunner train (its a new method of mass transit we have) from her town about 40 miles away. She had to take the city bus to all her clinical activities. She never complained about it. She was a kind and caring student nurse and was strong academically too. Her plans were to finish school, get some experience and then join the peace corp and give back what she had been given. Oh yes, she and all her siblings had been home schooled. She was one student who made it worthwhile to be a teacher. Whenever I get to feeling like "what's the use" I remember her.

Coreen said...

Here's more discussion on the various proposals...lot of labeling...

For me, this is such a profitable area for so
many interests that it will just continue to expand with more & more medications being used
to control, whether or not warranted.

Just reading the revisions proposed makes me
shake my head.

DSM v revisions

Carol said...

Loved the first article you linked Coreen. Now I will read the second one.

Jan, yes there are many young people like the girl you described but it seems like too many these days aren't and I don't know why. It's not like they had parents who didn't try hard or parents who didn't care very much. Three kids with the same parents, who are raised pretty much the same way, just turn out different. I opened a discussion to try and figure it out.

I do think that kids who get everything they want, as soon as they want it, without considering what their parents have to do to get it for them, are less likely to turn out OK but we do see miracles. What drives parents to do it in the first place?

jan said...

Coreen, the article on Autism is excellent. I need to find the research study that was reported on the news the other day that shows that autism is associated with older age of the mother. Unfortunatly it is another blaming of mom.
Something interesting I found in the article you posted is the idea that some of the characteristics of autism - especially the communication & social characteristics- may be present in many people that are not diagnosed. I would definitely agree. How many of us know people who cannot tolerate social situations or who are unable to socially converse in a give and take discussion.

jan said...

"I know I'm gonna step on some toes with my post"
Carol, LOL, ouch.

Coreen said...

Here is one that addressed the recent discussions about antidepressents..

Again almost like the chicken & the egg.

is it the medical profession/pharma pushing the drugs or is it the patient wanting them...

I don't have any idea which is responsible, for
me, it is a giant business, makes it cost effective & profitable to prescribe meds to what it seems that you guys may believe is the
patient wanting them...

Add to that, the direct, constant slick marketing campaigns soft-pedaling
depression as an illness that is somehow miraculously solved by popping a little pill...constantly on tv now....that the individual who may be feeling bad...thinks wow the magic pill that will cure all my ills....

Take you rpick who is responsible...for me the
answer will always come down to who is making the money from this...profits for perpetuating the need to be reliant on the meds is such a huge business....

I know I am expressing a very hostile attitude
toward the medical profession & yes,
I do believe they with their big businees enablers-pharma & insurers are primarily responsible not the patient who has been taught
his entire life that 'doctors' are infallible...

Antidepressent use in u.s. has
almost doubled

Coreen said...

Jan,

I am not sure what you mean with this:

"the idea that some of the characteristics of autism - especially the communication & social characteristics- may be present in many people that are not diagnosed. I would definitely agree. How many of us know people who cannot tolerate social situations or who are unable to socially converse in a give and take discussion

are you suggesting that being uncomfortable
in social situations are somehow another form
of undiagnosed autism..

For me all the labeling is precisely what is wrong...simple situations are used to categorize an individual as an 'ism'....only to then convince him/her that he/she is defective & in need of medical professional
help...which likely will involve a long time if not lifetime of meds/doctors/counseling/pschys, etc...

jan said...

Coreen, I think it is docs to some extent who are behind the problem of mass-pharmacopea, but I think the biggest offenders are the drug companies. we only have to look at TV ads to recognize this. I do think many patients go to docs and demand this or that.

One of the funniest examples of this was on the show 'House' last week. Cuddy Or Cutty, the female administrator (who wears the tight skirts and low cut tops) was seeing patients in clinic. A male patient with cancer demanded she write him a prescription for breast milk b/c he had read that it was a treatment for his type of cancer. Cutty would not prescribe this and he kept hounding her & threatening to sue her, etc.if she didn't comply with his request. Sounds a lot like what Carol is talking about with the inmates. This is sort of a bizarre example, but maybe it is not.

jan said...

Coreen, If I read it correctly, this is what the article you posted is saying.

Carol said...

I just read the second article you linked Coreen, Guess what, we all are disordered. I think they want to change the criteria to include just about all of us.

And it's a vicious cycle now Coreen. The Docs, with the help of others may have started it, but now the patient demands it. Believe me, they do. They will tell you that you are an idiot if you don't prescribe what they demand. And "you aren't as good as Doc so and so, because he does it". "Your just a NP, what do you know". "My Doc tells me to do......." And some of that stuff that they say they are told, is potentially lethal.

I had a patient who told me he had to take 6 to 9 of his anti-seizure med this week. He knew he had to. I told him that was potentially a dangerous dose and would start with the lower of the dose and check a blood level. I spent time trying to explain it all the this patient. No use.

The patient's mom and the Wardens came down on me. I had given him the lower of the dose he demanded, for only two days, and he became toxic, verified by toxic blood levels of the drug. Oh, but they all know better than me. I even cut it to half the dose he said he needed and he was still toxic.

jan said...

Coreen, I am not saying that being uncomfortable in social situations is a sign of autism. One of the 3 diagnostic characteristics of autism is related to social interaction. Most of us have some discomfort in "some" social situations. In children with autism, they often will not make eye contact or not respond when spoken to or their name is called.

Coreen said...

Jan,

My probelm is the article's labeling of actions
as an 'ism'...I may be wrong, butI beleive you said you agreed with that perception...to which I wondered if you felt that those uncomfortable in social situations were somehow undiagnosed autistic....

And the medical profession, pharma, insurers
are all in a symbiotic relationship...they need each other to perpetuate their feifdom...and the patient
who is bombarded with marketing is the dupe, convinced by a combination of the above entities that there is a magic pill out there
to cure all of his/her ills....

As far as Carol's predicament, I do not know enough about the situation to even offer an opinion as to how to handle the issues she must
face daily...

jan said...

Coreen, I would like to do away with all labels and simply interact and work with people/patients as individuals. I think all labels, especially mental health labels can be dangerous and destructive to people. I think Carol is right when she said a few comments ago - we are all disordered- in some way. I personally dislike the DSM IV and do not use it at all in my teaching.

Carol said...

And after reading a stack of medical records his family brought to Administration to prove that he needed this crazy, high, dose of meds and that I didn't know what I was doing, I found that the reason he often needed high doses of his meds was because he never took his meds, sometimes for months at a time. He also smoked cigerettes and pot, which both increase drug clearance. He couldn't do that in jail. What they thought was proof that he needed the high dose of medication, was actually proof that he didn't. But whose the expert? That was just one of the needles in my haystack this week!

Coreen said...

Unfortunately guys, I do not believe that we are all disorded in some way...human nature is
what it is, the vast majority of people just
live their life, deal with the ups & downs &
function effectively...&quite well for the most part....

I vehemently object to the labeling of many human activities as somehow 'not normal' thus allowing again the medical profession & their
allies to profit so vastly by convincing the
public they are some how deficient...

Again I come from the perspective that all this
is done for one thing only....profit/money/income call it what you will....

jan said...

"Moreover, large epidemiological studies have demonstrated that mild symptoms of autism are common in the general population"

Coreen, The above statement in the article is what I was referring to in my comment earlier. Difficulties in social situations and communication are 2 characteristics that are described in autism.

jan said...

What I mean by "disordered" is simply that if we took all the symptoms of all possible disorders mental or physiological, we are all flawed in one way or another. That does not make us sick or ill, simply human.

Carol said...

I'm often sandwiched between people who try to micro-manage when don't have a clue about any of it. Well, I got that off my chest!

Carol said...

Coreen, your singing to the choir here.

Carol said...

But Coreen, I do piss off many of my colleagues in the medical profession. That's why I am more confortable where I am working. No real way for many to profit from over-treatment or inappropriate treatment with my clientele, except for the drug companies and then the taxpayors have to finance that.

jan said...

I have had all the fun I can stand for one morning (oops, its afternoon here). Need a haircut in the worst way.

Carol said...

Blogs just might be where us asparagus like to hang out. That's what my older sister and I like to call those of us who may have a touch of Aspergers.

Carol said...

And I certainly don't begrudge anyone their antidepressants. We all need our favorite crutches whether it be coffee, tea or me. Or that hot toddy, or that glass of wine, or that chocolate bar or mowing thru the frig or going to the casino or...... I'm guilty of several of the above.

Coreen said...

Carol,

I do think that you wind up with the results
of those who found the easy way of dealing with
patients...only now that they are in a controlled/restricted/structured environment, that is, incarcerated...the failure of the
original prescribers is now up to you to remedy...which from what you have shared
is a most difficult decision to implement.

I do not envy your position at all. That is why I remain convinced that you have a deep
reservoir of strength, which I for one, do not
think I could ever possess....

jan said...

back for a minute. I am waiting for my tub to fill. My favorite haircutter can't take me for another 2 hours.

The article was interesting in that DSM V may include 'hoarders' and "skin pickers.' I have been guilty of both of these too - I finally quit going to most yard sales because I kept buying crap I didn't need. I have spent the first 50 years of my life "gathering" stuff and now am spending the last ??? getting rid of it. I have been known to pick my skin when stressed too.

Oh well, my tub is full now.

Carol said...

Coreen, you ought to get a closer look at this deep reservoir of strength sometimes. I'm getting pretty haggered but I've never chosen the easy way out. When life got too easy, I did something to make it more difficult. Don't ask me the explain that one, I'm still trying to figure it out. Maybe I'm working off some bad karma from a previous life. If not, then I'm gonna have a credit coming in the next one.

Coreen said...

Carol, I suspect you actually thrive on the
adversity & wind up even stronger in your
determination to do things right.

Time to relax a little before the weekend is
gone...

Carol said...

I'm supposed to be grocery shopping and washing my clothes but I haven't managed to leave yet. I do have three more days off to do those chores. Tomorrow morning will be a quiet day at the grocery store.

Coreen said...

There's some saying like what doesn't kill you
makes you stronger, don't know where it comes
from, where's Ivy.....

But I think that it may fit you Carol....

But don't misunderstand, ot that I want you to get killed.....just that what you do is beyond
my capacity....

Carol, I have been in the lockups in the Superior Court buildings here & just once in the local jail (for clients) & I have to say, theexperiences were enough to last ten lifetimes...hearing the doors lock behind were
chilling....

Carol said...

Coreen, I work for the State and the State has two days off next week for Mardi Gras.

Carol said...

I'm more afraid here at home or out on the streets than I am when I'm in the joint Coreen. And believe me, we have all kinds of criminals in there. We don't allow dangerous weapons in jail and you never know what people are wielding out on the streets.

Carol said...

I have bad times but things aren't always bad. I couldn't handle that. It's cyclic. Recently, it's been bad but I know that it won't last. And as soon as it is good again, I will forget the bad. And I have my camp, my Maggie and I have you guys. That's how I cope.

Coreen said...

Monday is President's Day here & I think all over, but I made an appt for a woman who has
that day off, to talk about her need to file
bankruptcy...

I know you have a basic dislike for the concept of some walking away from their financial obligations, but I can tell you, that
most have tried for a long time to try to pay,
& when they really have no other avenue, they
finally make the call....it is really not an
easy decision for them, they agonize over the
inability to keep things together & most are
releived when they find there is real help out there....

You have that off & another day for Mardi Gras
which is Tuesday, the day before Ash Wednesday?...I was raised Catholic so I kind of
remember holy days, though I am really a 'retired catholic' these days...Did go to the
Christening this a.m. for the little one I made the sweater & afghan for...have to see if
any of the pics I took in the Church are any good....

Carol said...

My family didn't have much money when we were growing up but we didn't want for anything when we were kids. Mom was the primary bread winner and she sold car license plates. Daddy was always sick. We still got lots of presents for Christmas, nothing like the kids do these days, but enough. And I always got those Bass Wejun penny loafers I wanted every year. They weren't cheap but I would have been heart broken if I didn't get them. Those were some pretty painful shoes to break in.

Carol said...

No Coreen, I don't judge those who really try but get underwater because of circumstances out of their control. I was even sorry when they made that new law that wouldn't allow the same filing for bankruptcy.

I do have no tolerance for those who have to have the best of everything, have it right now, don't consider the consequences of those decisions and then it ends up coming down on the rest of us to bail them out, those of us who could afford things but don't want to be wreckless with our money, those of us who try to be responsible.

I have two, compared to what these people are buying today, shacks but they are paid for. I make enough money to have much better and end up paying thru my ass in taxes to bail out those who were careless and selfish. That pisses me off!

Carol said...

And I'm pissed off because it isn't the credit card companies or banks that are paying for their enabling people to make these bad decisions, we are.

Coreen said...

Carol,

Sounds to me that you came from a strong family
unit, that instilled a very good work ethic...

Being an only child, I was spoiled, no question always had everything, my mom & dad both worked forthat awful company everyone wants to attack, GE....my mom was vp of the union, she actuallyworked in the factory then in the offices...dad worked in the factory as well....There is no factories here any longer,
GE corporate hq is here (I took the Xmas tree
pic there, but the factory bldgs are long ago
empty...still standing over on the other side
of Bpt)

My mom was called a communist way back then, because of her union work, & though here there may not have been segregation as the south knew it, there was not much interaction between races...but mom was friends with women who worked with her in GE who were black, so early on, I was taught to respect everyone... went to catholic grammar school, 2 years in catholic high school, the other 2 in public, while I worked in my family's plumbing/heating business office, throughout school....College & law school as well. It was always stressed
that I must go to school....

Not sure what bass wejun penny loafers were,
were they the shoes that you put the penny in the slot on the front? Never had any....

Coreen said...

I do understand the difficulty those that honor
their obligations have with the concept of
bankruptcy. I often think how did my clients
wind up owing $50-60,000 in credit card debt.

Truth be told, they have no answer when you ask them, they just got the cards & used them...
Believe it or not, they don't have much to show for the debt either, no fancy cars, no houses full of goodies, big tv, etc., they just bought, didn't pay it off in full, wound up paying interest,penalties, going from card to card for lower rates, paying a little here & there & sooner or later, like a snowball rolling down a hill, the debt load just keeps
getting bigger & they don't have enough income
to cover it....no matter what.

And yes, beside the credit cards, they also usually have a house mortgage & a car loan....

Carol said...

And I have those people that I see in jail everyday that tell me that they had to shoplift that stuff at Walmart or steal from their neighbor because they had to get their kids a nice Christmas or nice birthday. Or they couldn't afford something they needed. They had to do it. What about them? Should we let them off the hook because they used money that wasn't theirs for a good purpose? Maybe we should take into consideration the reason someone took something that wasn't theirs before we judge them.

What is the difference between running up a credit card you will never be able to pay off and stealing from another source to get what you think you need? I know that running up that credit card sounds a lot better but is there really a difference? I'm asking.

Carol said...

I think I might would try that arguement in court if I was a public defender, defending a shoplifting case. Would they laugh me out of court Coreen? Or would I get a contempt of court?

Carol said...

I want to be an attorney in my next life Coreen. I've always been fascinated with the law. Not sure whether I want to be a prosecutor or defense attorney, it would depend on the case. I only want to be on the side of right. Can't do that, can ya?

Carol said...

Coreen, I think you linked the wrong site for that antidepressant use article. The link you listed goes to the same one as you linked in an earlier comment about the DMS-V stuff.

If you noticed, most of the statistics on antidepressant use came from 1996-2005. I can't find any newer data even though the articles are newer. I would bet good money that since 2005 that use has significantly increased.

And, not to be misunderstood again, if they help, I'm all for people using them. If any of my inmates want one, I'm more than happy to prescibe one. If I think they would help, I prescribe one. And the SSRIs don't cause people to do stupid things and they don't knock people out so they aren't likely to be abused or misused like some other drugs are.

For many of my peeps at the jail, as soon as they find out the SSRI won't put them to sleep at night, they don't want it any longer. They want something that puts them to sleep. That's when I know it is more likely insomnia and not depression that their dealing with.

Coreen said...

Let's see what can I say...

Carol, your view of rirght & wrong is not necessarily incorrect, however, the law is not
so clear cut...

If your shoplifters are in jail,
they are paying for the crime...while their
motives may have been noble in their eyes, they violated the criminal code.

While those that run up that credit card,
think they will be able to repay it & intend to...they don't think that at some point not having enough money to pay it...there is no violation of criminal law.

A PD could certainly raise the issue of why
a person stole to try to lower the penalty to be imposed.

When I was in law school, one of my courses was
working in the prosecutor's office in Bpt. & yes, the dregs of humanity passed through that
court, from simple breach of peace, prostitutes, DWIs, to murderers,robbers,
were all arraigned in our court. The Part A
crimes---murder, rape, etc. were transfered to
the other building for trial, but the minor offenders were tried in that court....

I always thought I could be a prosecutor never a public defender...but finally knew I really did not want to be involved in criminal law at all....

Unfortunately, it is difficult to know sometimes what is the 'right' side of the law...Depends on one's perspective....

I also learned I did not want to do divorces...you can separate the couple's finances, but the emotional aspect that goes along with divorcing couples is just not for me, & divorcing couples can tend to get vicious & nasty at times...I'd rather represent bankrupts any day....

Coreen said...

Carol, try this link, I must have highlighted the wrong article that I had saved....but I think the stats are still not later than 2005...

Antidepressant use in u.s. has almost doubled

Coreen said...

Carol,

Here's a look at the market share of the various antidepressents...This is the crux of
the matter for me...
antideprssent drug market share

Carol said...

Coreen, very interesting. I've recently been seeing patients coming in on Presiq. I wondered which company was getting ready to lose their patent and came up with a new model. The other day I looked up who manufactored that drug. It was the same company that makes Effexor. Your article said that is is an improved model in that it requires a lower dose with a better side effect profile. Another way to grab the big money?

Effexor did cause some problems with high blood pressure so maybe Presiq will be safer. But there are cheaper models by other companies. But if your insurance pays $150/month for your anti-depressant, will you feel like you are getting a better medicine? Will it make you feel better? If you pay $100 for those designer jeans, rather than $30 for the generic ones, does you ass look better in them?

When Prilosec got close to the OTC generic coming out, they developed Nexium. It was suppose to be soooo much better. I heard a pharm PhD say that he didn't think it was really any better, just a lot more expensive and a way for the company to hold on to the big bucks.

Carol said...

And what does filing bankruptcy allow these days? Can people still get out of paying their debts, except by negotiating with the credit card cos or other cos they owe? I thought that writing off debts wasn't allowed anymore.

Coreen said...

Don't know about the meds, Carol, but neither the designer/generic jeans are a big help!!!

I know I'm a broken record, but it is always
about the $$$$$

By the way, did you catch that the Alabama
prof also killed her brother in 1986? accidently with a 12 ga. shotgun

Carol said...

Yes, I just heard that Coreen. There always more to the story. Maybe a little rage problem?

Carol said...

They have also moved the luge event to a less fast track, I think. Boys go to the girls and girls go to the junior track. That Whistler track was much faster than any other track. At least that is what I think I heard.

Coreen said...

While those pesky congresscritters really tried
to limit the filing of bankruptcies in 2005....they did make it more difficult, more
costly.

Their intent was to limit the Chapter 7s filed
& make debtors file a Chapter 13 which they
changed to make a debtor pay a portion of the
credit card debt....but there remains ways to
still file a Chapter 7, which allows a complete
discharge from the obligation to pay any of
the credit card debt (unsecured debt)...just
more complicated, more costly...but still available in most cases, but not all....

Coreen said...

Did they move the events to different courses
or modify the whistler?

Tonight Apollo Ono? will skate...pretty sure he won dancing with the stars with the blonde dancer I always liked...

Where's your sister or Jan...they will remember...

I want to see the curling...I get such a kick
out of that event...it looks so easy, but this
am saw the nbc guy trying it, he almost fell
over, trying to glide the 'stone' on the ice sliding on 1 leg & said last time he did fall over...& the sweeping in front of the stone, don't know the logic of how it helps it run toward the bullseye, but I find myself wishing for it to get a little closer as it starts to slow up....

Carol said...

I'm not sure if they did that for the event or just for the practice today. That Whistler is fast and furious.

Some of my favorites events are the snow boarding, the aerials, and the ski jumps. Love that Carrot guy.

Awww, I missed the Crew of Barkus parade today. It's where all the dogs dress up in costume and have a parade. Everyone throws doggie bisquits to the dogs.

Uhhh Coreen, if you do mostly bankruptcy cases, do you ever have any problems collecting for your services??? Seems that might be a risky specialty for an attorney.

Coreen said...

Crew of barkus parade? never heard of that one...maybe some pics on the net somewhere, the
nola.com?

Carol, we don't file the bankruptcy til the fees/costs are paid in full....

Carol said...

"Carol, we don't file the bankruptcy til the fees/costs are paid in full...."


Smart move Coreen but then you are an attorney!

Carol said...

Years ago, Mary entered one of her dogs in the Barkus parade. She made the Mardi Gras outfit. That's about the only parade I don't mind going to see. Here is one from NO in 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRH7ajmxGFU

Chloe said...

Wow! I really enjoyed reading the conversation, and I learned a lot from all of you.

When you mentioned Aspergers Carol, I looked it up, and ran across a UK site called MindFields. There was a video there on Aspergers, where an expert lectured on it for about 45 minutes, discussing that, as well as a little about psychosis and more on how we organize ideas, thoughts and perceive things. I learned so much from that guy -- I just love the internet. http://www.mindfields.org.uk/blog/?p=228

Chloe said...

Well, there's so much information here, I don't know where to start, so I'll see y'all tomorrow.

Enjoyed the read.

Carol said...

Cjloe, did you see that little Chloe from Canada doing the mogals? She was good.

Oops, not as fast as the next little girl.

Carol said...

Sorry, that was supposed to be Chloe.

Ivy Green said...

Coreen,
So intrigued by the comments you shared about your parents. Especially because the book I'm reading at the moment is about the history of the battle for Civil Rights in my adopted hometown...this town was founded on heavy industry (steel mfg.) which made it a natural target for union organizing by labor-advocates, and union-busting by the industrial owners (calling the shots from the north). Targeting union-sympathizers as communists was an easy way to undermine their sales-pitch to workers. The concept of integration was introduced in the '40s when FDR ordered desegregation of the war-production industries. There was an early intertwining of Marxist-sympathizers (mostly undercover) and civil rights organizers because the Marxists thought their best hope for worker-uprising lay with the most oppressed group. When red-baiting got underway during the McCarthy-era, civil rights advocates took greater pains to disassociate from socialists and Marxists. J. Edgar Hoover's dogged-pursuit of Martin Luther King, Jr. was fueled by his underlying fear of secret communist plots.

jan said...

Ivy, How interesting. I just read a novel by Anita Shreve with this theme and set in this era. The name of the book is Sea Glass.

jan said...

Carol, I love the Krewe de Barcus parade. What fun. I am sending the link to all our friends who love dogs.

jan said...

Coreen, I did not watch "dancing...stars" when Alollo was on. I think we have only watched it for a year.

Carol said...

I went to look at the site you linked yesterday Chloe and found a link to depression. Very interesting information there. Gives good advice for dealing with depression and seldom recommends use of anti-dpressants except in extreme cases and only until they lift a person to the level where they can use other stratigies.

Lift depression

Coreen said...

Good morning Carol

I just put up a new post...